| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15] > | We MUST quote in low-price jobs with OUR prices! Thread poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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Mervyn Henderson (X) 
Spain
Local time: 01:10
Spanish to English
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| Right on, Margreet! | Feb 4, 2009 |
Margreet Logmans wrote:
Just to answer Nadja's question:
I'm usually staying silent because
- I'm quite content with my rates and income
- there is no such thing as a 'general market' ad no 'blanket truths' exist
- there's nothing I can say for sure about other people's language pairs, rates and competency
- this is an endless discussion
Me, I feel it is important to
- have a good business sense
- a healthy dose of self-confidence
- market yourself well
- deliver good quality on time, always
- be clear, reasonable and realistic in your communications
- not waste time on working for people who do not respect me and my skills
This way, I'm a happy translator. Wish you all the same. 
Happy translating, and b****r the rest!
Mervyn
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Margreet Logmans wrote:
I'm usually staying silent because
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Way to go!
| | | | | Add your supporting data | Feb 4, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
Nothing for the moment. Get the data for the trends, over several years, and the representativity, from the crowd of translators.
But Arnaud, Kevin added the information he had, for the benefit of us all. Maybe you want to add your data and trends data and sources, in support of your view that rates are falling?
| | | | | Self-reported? | Feb 4, 2009 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Now mind you, these prices are nothing special at all. They are average prices, which - translated into real terms - means prices that are achieved by translators who are average in their marketing skills. Those who are particularly on the ball will do much better of course. Please note, Arnaud, that the lowest of these averages are rather close to double that "unattainable" rate of USD 0.10 that you whine about. Now what conclusions should I draw from this?
Are those figures from people who were invited to take part in a survey?
Selected how? (membership of German translators' association?)
Was responding compulsory in any way?
Was any proof required that people who reported earnings of x per word actually earned x per word (or line)?
Looked at harshly, do you consider a a self-selected group of people from a selective organisation under no obligation to tell the truth to be a truly representative survey?
I'm not having a dig at you. All the rates surveys I have seen suffer from exactly this same flaw. Yet it is all we have to go on.
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Arnaud HERVE
France
Local time: 01:10
English to French
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Tomas wrote:
But Arnaud, Kevin added the information he had, for the benefit of us all. Maybe you want to add your data and trends data and sources, in support of your view that rates are falling?
For which pair? For how many years? With how much representativity?
For the umphteen time, no I cannot produce a professional survey here. Don't ask me to produce a professional survey when I give my opinions on a forum.
The data Kevin provided are useful. Would have been better presented with normal manners, but still useful.
However, the presentation of only one year can hide a decrease over the years. And the non estimation of representativity can hide a lack of representativity.
For the umphteen time too, if you ask me if the financial court translators are ok, I will confirm.
[Edited at 2009-02-04 16:34 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 01:10
French to German
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| A Catch-22 game? | Feb 4, 2009 |
Steffen Walter wrote:
This is about business, not "feelings".
And as this is about business, my general "impression" is that newbie agencies enter the market(s) with the idea of making profits in a fast and somewhat inexpensive way, by systematically offering lower rates than their well-established competitors.
These agencies in turn attract end clients who are always on a budget and search for the lowest possible prices. And therefore are forced to post job offers with the famous USD 0.0x per source word, proofreading included.
To go back on track, I avoid sending quotes to outsourcers altogether. What I do is to reply to offers with low budget with a low-key approach, telling the outsourcer: "The rate you offer is about 1/5 (one fifth) of my lowest possible rate".
Such e-mails remain unanswered - I just wonder why? NOT professional, imo .
Laurent K.
PS/edit
Just an example:
Some potential direct client was not ashamed (back in 2007) to offer me EUR 0.50 per source line for DE>FR, while an intermediary had no problem at all paying EUR 0.12 per source word for EN>FR.
So indeed - there's no such thing as the translation market!
[Edited at 2009-02-04 16:28 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-02-04 16:30 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-02-04 16:53 GMT]
| | | | | Many emails unanswered | Feb 4, 2009 |
Yes, indeed actually many emails remain unanswered. Very frequently, an outsourcer comes by asking for my rate and when I state my rate and provide CV and any other details asked, the outsourcer does not even thank me for the information.
About 80% of my replies remain unanswered. Can't they simply reply in a line saying that my rate is too high for the budget at hand and offering to be touch later on? I would do it if I had started an email thread with a potential supplier...
| | | | | Rates not always going up | Feb 4, 2009 |
Kevin Lossner wrote: Let's talk real statistics for a change - current data. According to the BDÜ Honararspiegel, a survey of average rates ...
Fortunately, they are being replaced with € 0.15 to € 0.20 ones. From agencies mostly. It's often a matter of how you package and sell the services.
Well, to be fair, I deal with several agencies that have seen falling demand (at least in my pair), and one in particular that states they have for a fact lost business from even regular clients seeking cheaper translations - and this is one of my lowest-paying (but most respectable) agency clients.
And Kevin, as generous and kind as you have been to refer some agencies my way, you know that not a single one of them was willing to pay my standard rate (except in one case where rates were never discussed as the project was canceled), although in *one* exception, the agency was so pleased with my quality, they have come back to me about once a month for small projects at my rate.
Additionally, despite receiving high praise for translation tests and trial work I have done when negotiating with agencies in the last 18 months, again almost none of them were able to offer me a rate I could accept on a regular basis, several offering what I earned as a beginner in the field (over 8 years ago) or even less.
Your rates may be high or even rising, but that also may be related to factors such as who your clients are, what niche and specialty fields/programs you translate in, etc.
My 2c
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| Interesting questions | Feb 4, 2009 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Are those figures from people who were invited to take part in a survey?
Selected how? (membership of German translators' association?)
The German translator's association made a hard push to get its members to participate in the survey and collected the data over a number of months.
Was responding compulsory in any way?
Of course not. Compulsion hasn't been a big thing in Germany for over six decades now. However, there was a lot of emphasis on the importance of participation, and data were collected anonymously.
Was any proof required that people who reported earnings of x per word actually earned x per word (or line)?
Looked at harshly, do you consider a a self-selected group of people from a selective organisation under no obligation to tell the truth to be a truly representative survey?
When you've got numbers ranging between n=50 and 500 for the respondents, liars will tend to get averaged out. I will go out on a limb and make the assumption that reporting was basically honest. The data reported for my language pair were close enough to my experience and the experience of other translators I know (where in some cases they or their agencies tell me the rates paid) that I tend to trust it on the whole. You'll note too that the "market" is subdivided in 5 categories. That's a good start as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not having a dig at you. All the rates surveys I have seen suffer from exactly this same flaw. Yet it is all we have to go on.
My God, Charlie, why should I think so? One should take a careful look at any data presented and challenge it if it looks fishy in any way. That's what science is all about - dealing with real data and trying to understand what it really means and what its limitations are. There really is no place in science - or in business - for muddle-headed whining based on utterly unsubstantiated "feelings".
Really I think this whole obsession with low and declining rates and rumors of the same is a destructive waste of time. It gives failures an excuse to fail (which is of course their right) and causes others who may be new or struggling for other reasons to harm themselves by losing the focus on how they might improve their situation. Ralf or someone else will make a sensible suggestion for limiting business risk or doing better customer acquisition, and then the caterwauling chorus of doom starts again to talk about how the rate spiral is ever downward and there is no hope and that the Wicked Cheap Translators of the Third World will undercut us all, offering of course, no concrete data, just a bunch of feelings. I hear that psychopharmacology offers solutions for such feelings which might help some to calm down and get back to business
The reality is that there are a great number of opportunities for linguistically competent translators to improve their business skills and networks and do better. This is true regardless of your background, whether you are basically a bilingual secretary or an engineer with a deep mastery of five languages. The secretary might not top out at the same level as the engineer, but he'll do much better than where he was at the beginning if he focuses on the right things instead of getting lost in a whinefest.
And what about those huddled masses in poor countries hunched over their netbooks banging away at their keyboards 24 hours a day for $0.0001 per word? Get real. Real translators in "poor" and recently up-and-coming economies charge real rates if they are smart. The few I know certainly are not stupid, and there is definitely an intersection of our rate ranges. As far as rates for my pair are concerned, I suppose I could consider the USA to be one of these poor countries with translators willing to work for crusts of bread. (Wouldn't you agree, Nicole?) Yet by delivering quality and playing the time zone game to my advantage I've never seen any effect on my business from this pool of cheap labor. I even try to encourage European customers to take advantage of low-priced work there, but many don't want to be bothered with it.
| | | | Mervyn Henderson (X)
Spain
Local time: 01:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Is it just me ... | Feb 4, 2009 |
... or are hundreds of translators idle?
Bracing myself for a torrent of outraged denial,
Mervyn
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Mervyn Henderson wrote:
... or are hundreds of translators idle?
Bracing myself for a torrent of outraged denial,
Mervyn
Not me!!! How do you dare say so!!!
(Just my part of the torrent of outraged denial. I get an automated notice from Proz as the topic starter...)
[Edited at 2009-02-04 17:30 GMT]
| | | | | How to put it... | Feb 4, 2009 |
Mervyn Henderson wrote:... or are hundreds of translators idle?
Let's just say, despite the 70 or more forum posts sitting in my eMail, I did find the time to read them all... 
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Mervyn Henderson (X)
Spain
Local time: 01:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Torrente II ... | Feb 4, 2009 |
It'll come, Tomás, be sure of it, so here's to one of the longest threads in a long long yarn.
| | | | | Individual situations and the need for planning | Feb 4, 2009 |
Janet Rubin wrote:
And Kevin, as generous and kind as you have been to refer some agencies my way, you know that not a single one of them was willing to pay my standard rate (except in one case where rates were never discussed as the project was canceled), although in *one* exception, the agency was so pleased with my quality, they have come back to me about once a month for small projects at my rate.
One case I know of is a nice agency with a marketing problem - they fail to charge the rates they need to from end customers to pay what I consider a great rate. But there are other good things on offer there if you need them - in my case the best technical support for Trados problems I've ever encountered. In another case, well... we discussed that one. We get paid more, but unfortunately the person you dealt with felt that you should be cheap because you don't live in Europe. I'm glad you stood your ground on that one. It's his loss, and the next time some cheap monkey screws up a translation we might not have time to fix the mess.
What is it they say is the most important thing in real estate? Or the THREE most important things? Location, location, location. We have noticed that it plays a significant role; living in Australia you will have a harder time marketing to European clients than I will. An Indian colleague of mine faces the same issues plus the usual idiotic prejudices one often encounters in Europe about qualified professionals in his country. So both of you have a tougher challenge for marketing your services. At least you know where focusing your efforts might bring better results. Monique has always had a huge client base in Europe, but when she moved to California, she lost nearly all of it within two years. She didn't know how to cope with the time zone issues. You might do so by keeping strange hours, but there are other barriers, like additional cost for money transfers, etc.
There are so many factors in each individual's business situation. That is why, no matter what your level of experience or your language pair(s), it is extremely useful - sometimes indispensable - to write a detailed business plan and update it often. Review the plan with your accountant, business friends and other experts. If you grab your clothes off the rack without checking the size, don't be surprised if the fit is bad. If you look a little closer and make a few trips to the fitting room, you can do much better. The best, of course, is custom-tailored clothes. Now as starving translators we can't afford these maybe (yet), but we can afford a business plan tailored to our situation, and by using this tool those custom-tailored clothes (bespoke clothes for you Brits, right?) may one day not so far away be within the reach of our budget.
Our time is much better spent on such efforts than dealing with baboons posing as zookeepers trying to pass out peanuts to the desperate.
[Edited at 2009-02-04 17:42 GMT]
| | | | Hynek Palatin
Czech Republic
Local time: 01:10
English to Czech
+ ...
Kevin Lossner wrote:
...a worldwide trend that should cause Lithuanians and Czechs to soil themselves.
That's right. I received the following response from a California-based agency last week:
I am sorry but I will be using translators with lower rates for this job. If you wish to be considered for future assignments, please be aware that we are currently paying .04 USD per word for Czech.
Now where is that diaper...
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