Jun 21, 2003 03:34
21 yrs ago
1 viewer *
English term

symbolically destroyed

English Medical Tooth-Filing Ceremony
I'd just like to check something about the meaning of symbolic.

If something is SYMBOLICALLY destroyed, is that the same as saying it's ACTUALLY destroyed?

I've got a text here that talks about a tooth-filing ceremony in Bali. It's in German and I'm translating it into English. But I'm asking this in English alone because the German text is clear enough (it distinctly says that the certain teeth and the demons believed to be associated with them are "symbolisch vernichtet"). The problem is, the teeth are not actually destroyed, though they are filed. However, this "symbolische Vernichtung" takes place before the actual filing is done.

So I would just like to ensure that "symbolically" doesn't mean the same as "actually", as I'm not totally clear about it. TIA for your help.

Discussion

Non-ProZ.com Jun 21, 2003:
The German Sentence If it would help at all, here's the German sentence on which I'm basing this question:

"Mit einem Gebet werden die zu initiierenden Jugendlichen geheiligt und symbolisch die Z�hne der Oberkiefer-Front und der damit verbundenen D�monen vernichtet."

It's quite definitely saying that the teeth as well as the demons associated with them are "symbolically destroyed".

Responses

+2
4 hrs
Selected

further info

From looking at a few Google sites, it would seem like this ceremony is a really big deal (the last duty parents have to fulfill for their children).

The filing represents the 'removing of the rough edges of the personality', and each tooth filed represents a different (negative) personality trait, that has to be filed away (removed).

It is not the teeth that are destroyed / removed, but the 'demons'.

I would suggest that in the ceremony (where your text states symbolically removed), the teeth are the physical embodiment (take the place of) the demons/badness (which can't be seen). I imagine it is a bit like any sacrificial ceremony with lots of chanting, songs, prayers etc and something physical/representative (the teeth) to focus upon. When it comes to the physical filing, each stroke of the file represents the exorcism / destruction of the demon.

If you see what I mean?!
Not a brilliant link, but it does explain some of the meaning of how many teeth are involved and why etc...
Peer comment(s):

agree DGK T-I : about physical embodiment, but suggest too that the points of the incisors are being actually destroyed to represent the destruction of things in the spiritual world :-)
30 mins
agree Tanja Abramovic (X)
15 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "It was extremely difficult to choose an answer here, as all the answers were very helpful in one way or another. But Jerrie's comment, "It is not the teeth that are destroyed / removed, but the 'demons'" made something click for me. I think that the German is poorly worded. "Vernichten" is quite good for demons, but not for teeth. It's just too strong a word for the filing process. Really, only the demons are being "symbolisch vernichtet" here, with the filed teeth being the actual symbol of the demons' destruction. So I'm going to change the wording in my translation to say the demons associated with the teeth are symbolically destroyed, but say nothing about the teeth themselves being symbolically destroyed, because as Jerrie says, that's really what is happening and so it is more appropriate to express it that way than how the German author put it. It just gets the idea across more accurately and clearly. Thank you all very much for your informative and detailed answers. Not for the first time do I wish I could give points to more than one person!"
+6
27 mins

destroyed "in spirit" (not in actuality)

Rowan, my understanding is that it is only representative of the actual world; the symbol stands for something which is being destroyed but in effect, on the idea of it is destroyed (although, the story is quite unknown to me and I can't really say I understand the ceremony)


allegory. The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001
...allegory, in literature, symbolic story that serves as a disguised representation for meanings other than those indicated on the surface. The characters in an allegory...

symbolic. Roget s II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition. 1995.
...Serving as a symbol: emblematic, emblematical, representative, symbolical. See SUBSTITUTE....
Peer comment(s):

agree Will Matter
23 mins
thanks Will!
agree J. Leo (X)
1 hr
thanks James!
agree Fantutti (X)
1 hr
thank you!
agree Sarah Ponting : totally agree :-)
3 hrs
thanks Sarah :-)
agree DGK T-I
4 hrs
thanks Giuli :-)
agree Tanja Abramovic (X)
19 hrs
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+1
2 hrs

my thoughts

Perhaps they are talking about the demons as being symbolically destroyed by means of destroying (filing) the tooth, since they do not have a demon at hand they can destroy (?).
It could also be the tooth which is symbolically destroyed; it is not really destroyed, only filed.
Another option is that in some areas/families the tooth filing is only performed symbolically - letting the file go over the tooth without actually filing it.
I have not found anything indicating that any destruction takes place before the tooth filing.
HTH

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Note added at 2003-06-21 06:15:50 (GMT)
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\'symbolic\' (of sth) using or used as a symbol: The cross is symbolic of Christianity; The two leaders ... shook hands in a symbolic gesture of friendship.

(Oxford ALD)

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Note added at 2003-06-21 06:33:18 (GMT)
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You may destroy something as a symbol of something else, i.e. symbolically destroying this thing.
In Denmark, every year on this date actually (21 June), we light a bonfire with a \'witch\' on top. This is symbolic of the exorcism of evil. As we light the fire, we burn all that is evil, and for the next year we will be save.

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Note added at 2003-06-22 15:29:33 (GMT) Post-grading
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Actually, I was wrong about the date: it\'s tomorrow 23 June.
Peer comment(s):

agree DGK T-I : in general symbolically destroying something could be pretending to destroy it as a symbol of something, or actually doing it as a symbol of something wider - in the spirit world or ours.
2 hrs
That's what I'm trying to say, yes. Cheers :o)
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3 hrs

Request for more info

As my question is too large for the small box provided for this kind of question, I am entering it here. My question:

Is the dental work that follows the symbolic destruction of the tooth demons one of filling or filing. As drilling usually occurs before the filling takes place and is in effect a kind of rotary filing, perhaps my question is not at all pertinent. Nethertheless, I have never heard of a cavity being removed through filing -- only drilling. In summary, are cavities being filled or are teeth being filed?

It would appear in either case that the demons are symbolically destroyed, as the means to destroy symbols are other acts of symoblism.

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+1
4 hrs

sites in English that may help

Instead of guessing, why not actually research the topic in more detail. There are plenty of sites. It seems that that teeth are believed to represent animalistic qualities that can be detroyed through filing and leveling off of teeth, to eliminate "fangish" points. The teeth are damaged, but not necessarily, "destroyed" or rendered useless. Perhaps the German is a bit exaggerated or ambiguous, and as often happens, we are once again called upon to interpret meaning.

http://www.klubkokos.com/guidebook/wedding.htm

http://www.balivision.com/Article_Resources/ReligionToothFil...

Religion Tooth Filing

Called 'mapandes' in High Balinese, 'matatah' in Common Balinese. The reason for filing is to control evil human characteristics (sad ripu): greed, lust, anger, confusion, stupidity, jealousy, ill-will, and intoxication by either passion or drunkenness. This important life-cycle event usually occurs when a Balinese boy or girl reaches puberty-at a girl's first menstruation, when a boy's voice changes. If not then, it must definitely take place before marriage; sometimes filing is incorporated into the marriage ceremony. After filing, a father's duties to his female children are generally regarded as complete.

Before a cremation the teeth of a cadaver may be filed. Why? Pointed teeth are likened to those of ferocious witches, demons, wild animals, savages, or, almost as bad, dogs. A person's canine teeth, regarded by the Balinese as animalistic fangs (caling), are filed flat so the child may become fully human, able to reign in the emotions. It's believed a Balinese may be denied entrance into heaven if the teeth are not filed because s/he might be mistaken for a wild creature. In the old days the teeth of adolescents were also blackened with betel nut to distinguish them from the white teeth of animals.

'Mapandes' is a costly affair; invitations must be issued, musicians are hired, the fee of the 'pedanda' is paid, elaborate offerings are carried out, and a banquet is prepared for guests and villagers. Because of the great expense, it may be delayed until enough money has been saved. A number of families may participate in a mass toothfiling in order to share costs, or it may be held simultaneously with some other costly ceremony such as a cremation or wedding. The 'banjar' often determines that financial help should be extended to the lower castes to enable them to participate. To view the maximum pomp and ritual, attend a toothfiling ceremony sponsored by a Brahman family, where as many as 14 people may participate and expenses could top Rp35 million.

Toothfiling represents the evening out of the extreme and 'kasar' (rough) aspects of one's personality as one enters adulthood. Toothfiling also adds the person of the six evil animal passions that Balinese believe everyone possesses to some degree: laziness (alus), love of sensual pleasures (raga), love of luxury and splendor (dewasa), love of worldly goods (tresna), indifference (indra), and resoluteness (baja). Though representatives from each caste are in the toothfiling ceremony, a girl of the lower caste will be asked to lie on a platform at a lower level than her upper-caste sisters, and she wears less lavish ceremonial clothing. The most important event of adolescence, Balinese endure it with not a sound of complaint. After the filing, youths of all castes can go on to lead healthy, well-adjusted lives as a part of Ball's tightly knit family, clan, community and society.

Filing is scheduled on an auspicious day and performed by a specialist Brahman priest on a special platform. For the occasion makeshift bamboo shrines with gay, colorful offerings of rice, sweet cakes, flowers, and fruits are erected within the compound. All attendees dress in traditional clothing, and the customary white cardboard box of snacks and bottle of sweetened tea is handed to all that enter.

Having spent the previous two or three nights praying while confined in bale built for the occasion within the high-caste family's compound, from two to 100 initiates are assembled, dressed in white and yellow to signify holiness. Girls wear precious 'kemben' (breast cloth), the finest the family can afford, with garments as ornate as those of legong dancers. Boys wear a 'songket' from the armpits to the knees, a 'kris' protruding from a yellow sash in the back.

The ceremony begins with the 'pedanda' sprinkling holy water and blessing the group with mantras. Offerings are placed before the gods of sexual love. The initiates lie down on the richly draped bamboo platform wide-eyed and frightened, clutching their pillows as close relatives ring around. Incense is lit, mouthwash placed at the ready, files and whetstones blessed to cleanse them and render the operation painless. Magic symbols (aksara) are inscribed on the teeth.

The "dentist" (sangging) first places a small cylinder of sugarcane in the corners of the mouth to prop the jaws open and prevent gagging. The front two upper canines are filed so they're even with the upper incisors; it's important to effect an even line of short teeth. The actual filing requires about five to 10 minutes. A mirror is provided to allow the patient to observe the progress of the ritual. Filings are spit into a yellow coconut. Tears may roll down their cheeks, but the filees seldom cry out.

Sometimes members of the family sing a 'kekawin' about Arjuna, the brave young hero of the Mahabharata epic, to bolster the spirits of their loved ones, someone else may recite Kawi translated into vernacular Balinese. To lighten the atmosphere, the 'sangging' may joke with the filee as he files.

After consulting with his girlfriend, wife, or mother, a boy may decide he still possesses too much animality and lie back down on the bed for more filing. Occasionally, there are requests for just a few token, symbolic strokes of the file.

When the filing is finished, the astringent betel pepper leaf (base) is rubbed on the ends of the teeth, then the 'pedanda' places various other soothing, healing tinctures on the end of the initiate's tongues. The coconut shell receptacle of filing debris and saliva is then buried behind the ancestral shrine lest it be occupied by evil spirits.
Peer comment(s):

agree DGK T-I : I was just looking at sites, and it sounds pretty like"actual destruction of the teeth as a symbol of destruction things spiritual"to me http://website.lineone.net/~suryo/Bali.html
20 mins
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5 hrs

actual filing down of the points of canine teeth because they are considered too bestial for humans

It seems in this case to be real destruction representing greater destruction of bad things from the spirit world.......

"We use the bale dangin for all kinds of ceremonies," Windra said. "If there's a marriage, or a death, or a birth, we go here. This is where we do the tooth filing." Pubescent offspring undergo a painful and highly ceremonial tooth filing to even off the points of their canines, which are considered too bestial for humans and a potential source of unwanted animalistic behavior.




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Note added at 2003-06-21 08:36:07 (GMT)
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The destruction being of the points of the sharp pointed canine teeth....

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Note added at 2003-06-21 08:41:10 (GMT)
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to represent a greater destruction of things in the spirit world....

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Note added at 2003-06-21 11:30:28 (GMT)
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In answer to Rowan\'s note about the German definitely saying that the teeth are symbolically destroyed to represent the destruction of associated demons, I would say:

Bearing in mind Marie, PCovs\'s & my responses, it seems reasonable to say that the symbolic destruction of the teeth in this ritual often but not always involves the actual destruction of the \'bestial\' points of the canine teeth - in some cases the physical treatment of the teeth may be less than could be described as physical destruction.

In general (not here) symbolic destruction may or may not involve physical destruction of something, to represent something else, depending on what actually takes place.
Peer comment(s):

neutral pcovs : Not necessarily! As I explained, in some areas this ceremony only includes 'symbolic' filing of the teeth: letting the file touch the teeth without actually filing it down!
32 mins
You are right.Your source is more detailed than mine,and unless Rowan's text makes it clear that the points are actually destroyed (as will often be the case), we must include the possibility that the physical token is less.Both rep.dest.in spir.world :-)
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18 hrs

symbollicaly destroyed - just that

In this context, as in most contexts, symbolically means only that: as a symbol.
In Bali teeth are the symbol of lust, greed, anger, insobriety, confusion and jealousy. In the Balinese belief system, the tooth filing ceremony helps people get rid of the invisible demons.

For more on this, visit:

http://www.balix.com/magazine/articles/potong.html
"Balinese Hinduism can be very highly symbolic, and canine teeth or caling (Balinese word) or fangs is the symbol of bad behavior, uncivilized, even ‘evil’. So, dulling the canine teeth wished can smooth out the bad behavior", and

http://www.baliforyou.com/bali/bali_guide/balinese_hindu.htm
"The next major ceremony occurs as the child reaches the age of puberty. This is the famous "tooth-filing" ceremony whose aim is to symbolically eradicate the animal or "wild" nature in a person - held for girls on the occasion of her first menstruation; for boys when his voice changes. During the ceremony, both upper canine teeth are filed down slightly. A person should now behave as an adult, able to control his or her emotions.", and many more...
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