| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Native speakers and language direction Thread poster: Gerard Barry
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Anne Maclennan 
Local time: 19:56
Member (2010)
German to English
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This is something that has always given me pause for thought. When I trained as a translator we were told unequivocally that it is unethical to translate into a language of which you are not a native speaker unless it has become your language of habitual use over many years, giving you native command of it. Yet, as Gerard has pointed, out there are translators, whose native language is not English and who do not live in an English-language country, who translate - and are employed to translate -... See more This is something that has always given me pause for thought. When I trained as a translator we were told unequivocally that it is unethical to translate into a language of which you are not a native speaker unless it has become your language of habitual use over many years, giving you native command of it. Yet, as Gerard has pointed, out there are translators, whose native language is not English and who do not live in an English-language country, who translate - and are employed to translate - from their native language into English.
I agree with Tom in London. Many Germans do believe their English is perfect, to the extent that on occasion clients have returned translations to me with queries about my use of English. One such instance was my use of “merely”. The German client stated that as a fluent speaker of English he knew that such a word did not exist. My reply was short, sharp, but (only just) polite.
The English written by non-native speakers is often unnatural and many of my colleagues, who translate English into French, dread these texts. One friend told me that he had had complaints about the quality of his translation of a text, written by a non-English speaker, of which he had struggled to make sense because the grammar and syntax contained errors which obscured the meaning.
I can understand why translation out of a native language into English might be necessary, where there is a dearth of English translators fluent in the source language, but I question the ethics where the languages in question are more commonly spoken by mother-tongue English translators. ▲ Collapse
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The general attitude of many non-native English translators seems to be that anyone and everyone can write perfectly in English, as it's such a simple language. All other languages are far more challenging and must be translated by native speakers only.
For example, in one of my (Kudoz) language pairs, nearly every source language native translates into English and many cheerfully claim to be native English as well, while some even claim to be native English only.
I have absolutely ... See more The general attitude of many non-native English translators seems to be that anyone and everyone can write perfectly in English, as it's such a simple language. All other languages are far more challenging and must be translated by native speakers only.
For example, in one of my (Kudoz) language pairs, nearly every source language native translates into English and many cheerfully claim to be native English as well, while some even claim to be native English only.
I have absolutely no objections to people translating into a foreign language as long as the client is aware that they are getting a non-native translation. Incorrect prepositions, verb tenses, syntax, vocabulary choices etc. give the game away, but if a client prefers having a non-native translate speaker into English, so be it. Sometimes it makes for very amusing reading.
[Edited at 2022-05-05 14:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:56
Member (2008)
Italian to English
writeaway wrote:
...... Sometimes it makes for very amusing reading.
Yes, like the two European guys in "Family Guy" who think their English is, like, really good, Man!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj0q2yhZCmY
[Edited at 2022-05-05 14:58 GMT]
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Baran Keki wrote:
I have no proof of that of course, but I strongly suspect that some companies (mostly British, American, or those from the English speaking world) outsource their manual/press release writing tasks to other countries (just like they outsource their manufacturing operations) and those texts are written (as in created from scratch) by non-native English speaker authors/writers who work for cheaper rates.
I mean you expect to see decent English when you translate the manual of a British forklift manufacturer (not a major one) that doesn't have affiliates all over the world, but you come across such wording that no native English speaker would ever use (not grammatically), it's clearly the product of some someone who thought in his native language and then applied whatever in his head into writing in English.
... but you shouldn't always expect that the native British or US writer always masters his/her language sufficiently. Same with German technical writers: In the last companies I worked for as a technician the writers of the manuals sometimes were the same people who developed the systems and therefore not necessarily trained to write in proper German, or they were just bored of that task, not motivated at all, distracted by their smartphones, social media, colleagues, by gossip, by a passive-aggressive attitude and what you have in those departments etc.
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| Not just non-natives | May 6, 2022 |
Anne Maclennan wrote:
The English written by non-native speakers is often unnatural
So is the English written by native speakers. I worked for a few years doing technical writing for a UK university research department. My material consisted of texts written in some cases by postgraduate level native English speakers who apparently found it difficult to write a coherent and syntactically correct English sentence.
That was the reason I was given the job. The head of department told me there was only one other person there apart from him who knew how to write a technical paper properly. A few months' experience was sufficient for me to agree with his view.
| | | | Zolboo Batbold
Italy
Local time: 19:56
Member (2021)
English to Mongolian
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SITE LOCALIZER | Native language Mongolian, but I translate into English | May 6, 2022 |
My native language is Mongolian, but I translate into English because there are no native English-speaking translators (maybe very few) who can speak Mongolian. In fact, most Mongolian translators routinely translate into English.
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 20:56
Member
English to Turkish
Philip Lees wrote:
I worked for a few years doing technical writing for a UK university research department. My material consisted of texts written in some cases by postgraduate level native English speakers who apparently found it difficult to write a coherent and syntactically correct English sentence.
How long ago was this? Based on the proofreading jobs I've done over the recent years I get the feeling that young people that grew up with smart phones, the internet and social media are, in general, not that interested in reading books as the people from my generation (who grew up in the 80s and 90s) were.
As a result, they (some of them in addition to being bad translators) seem to have, in general, a poor command of their native/target language.
I did a very large proofreading job at the beginning of this year. The translation had already been proofread/edited/revised, I was just supposed to read the translation without checking the source text to see if it read naturally in the target language. The majority of the sentences read like Youtube or Twitter comments, and this was meant to be a training material for an important company (that is, it wasn't an IT, social media related text where you were required to use an informal language).
However, the case of English post grads is an interesting one...
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:56
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Baran Keki wrote:
,,,,,, over the recent years I get the feeling that young people that grew up with smart phones, the internet and social media are, in general, not that interested in reading books ....
I have been in the homes of 40-year-olds where there is not a single book to be seen anywhere.
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| You seem to grow old ... | May 6, 2022 |
Tom in London wrote:
I have been in the homes of 40-year-olds where there is not a single book to be seen anywhere.
... because today everybody reads with a Kindle (or a similar device). Books ...!
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:56
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Keep your ageism to yourself, sonny | May 6, 2022 |
Matthias Brombach wrote: Tom in London wrote:
I have been in the homes of 40-year-olds where there is not a single book to be seen anywhere. ... because today everybody reads with a Kindle (or a similar device). Books ...!
I have had a kindle for years but I hardly ever use it. Books are much better; although of course some people may not know the difference because they never use either.
[Edited at 2022-05-06 09:43 GMT]
| | | | | Only in London | May 6, 2022 |
Tom in London wrote:
I have been in the homes of 40-year-olds where there is not a single book to be seen anywhere.
Did they know you were there?
| | | | | Thank you ... | May 6, 2022 |
Tom in London wrote:
Keep your ageism to yourself, sonny
... I always feel honored when my non-native English can cause those reactions 
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Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 20:56
Member
English to Turkish
| Congratulations | May 6, 2022 |
Matthias Brombach wrote: ... I always feel honored when my non-native English can cause those reactions
Imagine getting that in real life though.. they probably wouldn't give you the time of day once they heard that funny 'foreign accent' 
| | | | | Don't throw bricks ... | May 6, 2022 |
Baran Keki wrote: Imagine getting that in real life though.. they probably wouldn't give you the time of day once they heard that funny 'foreign accent'
... when you live in a glasshouse, Baran. Or in other words, often used in a region south of you and by another prominent user of proz:
😃 😝 🤪 💩 😝 🤪 !
[Bearbeitet am 2022-05-06 20:26 GMT]
| | | | | I was brought up by a Bible translator, and I have lived more than half my life in Denmark ... | May 6, 2022 |
I have never considered it unethical or immoral to translate into an acquired language. It happens, and at best you get far better results than machine translation, which is the alternative today.
As a Bible translator, and not a native speaker of either the source or the target language, my father was a very humble person, but I believe he was very good at what he did. I was often amazed at other people's respect for him. He ALWAYS worked with native speakers of the target language... See more I have never considered it unethical or immoral to translate into an acquired language. It happens, and at best you get far better results than machine translation, which is the alternative today.
As a Bible translator, and not a native speaker of either the source or the target language, my father was a very humble person, but I believe he was very good at what he did. I was often amazed at other people's respect for him. He ALWAYS worked with native speakers of the target language when he translated, and another of his jobs was to train the next generation of translators to take over, so they could translate into their native language.
In Denmark most people grow up with English in the background, on television and news reports. Many who study read professional literature in English, and if they actually train as translators, they probably write very good English. They still do not write it quite the way natives do - and the best of them know it!
Where the subject is highly specialised, there may not be a native speaker of English available, while a Danish subject specialist may be the best option. They do tend to write a kind of Scandi-English or Danglish, admittedly. There are exceptions but very few.
On the other hand, I have learnt a lot of English from Danish colleagues - instead of just ´playing it by ear´, they have taught me the linguistics and logic in the language, and that is a real gift.
I never translate more than a sentence or two into Danish professionally, because you can always find a Dane who will do it better or more correctly. However, I have no problems with others who translate both ways, as long as they do it well and know their limitations. ▲ Collapse
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