| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | Restrict KudoZ askers working into non-native languages? Thread poster: Ian M-H (X)
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Ian M-H (X)
United States
Local time: 22:26
German to English
+ ...
Just thinking aloud...
I get the feeling that ever more questions are being asked which could easily have been answered by the asker if s/he had done some extremely basic research. I don't mean failing to find a specialist online glossary, or not having a specialist dictionary to hand when e.g. a technical engineering term crops up in an insurance contract, but questions qhich a simple pocket dictionary or Google could provide answers to.
I know that there's no way to s... See more Just thinking aloud...
I get the feeling that ever more questions are being asked which could easily have been answered by the asker if s/he had done some extremely basic research. I don't mean failing to find a specialist online glossary, or not having a specialist dictionary to hand when e.g. a technical engineering term crops up in an insurance contract, but questions qhich a simple pocket dictionary or Google could provide answers to.
I know that there's no way to stop this completely without making ProZ restrictive and exclusive, but perhaps it could be limited. One idea might be to only allow translation questions if one of the languages in the pair is a (confirmed) native language.
There could conceivably be exceptions for people who've been around a while, paid and/or collected some KudoZ themselves (I might encounter a stray French phrase in a Swiss German document, for example).
Alternatively, perhaps the number of questions a user can ask in a language pair could be limited?
I won't be suprised if there are good reasons why this is a daft idea... Let's hear them!
Ian ▲ Collapse
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I would welcome anything at all which caused ProZ to take a more professional (as the name suggests) direction - I think the site is established now and doesn't necessarily need to cater for absolutely everyone.
However, the only issue I would have with your otherwise quite reasonable suggestion is that people could "cheat" and declare themselves to be native English speakers when they are not.
You know what other responses you're going to get, don't you? All that "if ... See more I would welcome anything at all which caused ProZ to take a more professional (as the name suggests) direction - I think the site is established now and doesn't necessarily need to cater for absolutely everyone.
However, the only issue I would have with your otherwise quite reasonable suggestion is that people could "cheat" and declare themselves to be native English speakers when they are not.
You know what other responses you're going to get, don't you? All that "if you don't like it, don't answer the question" brigade will pop up.
Which would be fine IF Kudoz had a way of filtering the questions shown so that, for example, I can choose NOT to display questions from "not logged in" in the list, not discover it when I've already opened it.
Another useful option would be one I've seen on other forums (or fora, if you prefer), which is an "ignore" option - questions from that individual would not be displayed on your list. However, I digress....
Your idea is basically sound but people could easily get round it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nesrin 
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:26
English to Arabic
+ ...
| 2 reasons why it's not such a good idea... | Mar 30, 2005 |
1) Speaking of my own experience, when I'm working on a German>Arabic translation, I often find that, when the dictionary doesn't do the job, online resources are severely lacking, and I am aware that only a handful of translators contribute to the ArabicGerman language pairs on Kudoz. In these cases, I may decide post the question on the German>English page, and then take it from there(I'm not sure if I've actually done that before, but it's quite possible).
2) Most of those questi... See more 1) Speaking of my own experience, when I'm working on a German>Arabic translation, I often find that, when the dictionary doesn't do the job, online resources are severely lacking, and I am aware that only a handful of translators contribute to the ArabicGerman language pairs on Kudoz. In these cases, I may decide post the question on the German>English page, and then take it from there(I'm not sure if I've actually done that before, but it's quite possible).
2) Most of those questions you refer to (which askers could have answered themselves if they had done some basic research) are indeed asked by translators whose native language is one of the languages in the pair.
Nesrin ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 05:26
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| Restrict kudoz points to confirmed members | Mar 30, 2005 |
This is one measure to get more professionality into this Kudoz system. But for minor languages there are no problems really, answers are mostly valuable.
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| do not take it too seriously | Mar 30, 2005 |
Dear Ian,
I would not take KudoZ so seriously and ProZ is definitely not a kind of Bar Assoc. KudoZ had been actually created for fun - you may ask the Founder yourself. So i doubt any restrictions / limitations are really needed.
The system and people's knowledge and skill will refine the process in a 'natural' way.
In fact practically anyone can go and find the very specialist glossary instead of asking KudoZ questions - it is a free choice (same as answering):-))
I won... See more Dear Ian,
I would not take KudoZ so seriously and ProZ is definitely not a kind of Bar Assoc. KudoZ had been actually created for fun - you may ask the Founder yourself. So i doubt any restrictions / limitations are really needed.
The system and people's knowledge and skill will refine the process in a 'natural' way.
In fact practically anyone can go and find the very specialist glossary instead of asking KudoZ questions - it is a free choice (same as answering):-))
I wonder what would you say about having an option of using some 'restricted' version of KudoZ (say, "KudoZ Professional" where only genuine language speakers with relevant credentials are allowed for specific languge combinations) but for some special fee - i am joking here but it is just 'the other side of the coin'.
Very best,
V.
Ian Harknett wrote:
I know that there's no way to stop this completely without making ProZ restrictive and exclusive, but perhaps it could be limited. One idea might be to only allow translation questions if one of the languages in the pair is a (confirmed) native language.
There could conceivably be exceptions for people who've been around a while, paid and/or collected some KudoZ themselves (I might encounter a stray French phrase in a Swiss German document, for example).
▲ Collapse
| | | | Endre Both
Germany
Local time: 04:26
English to German
| E-mail notifications can be fine-tuned | Mar 30, 2005 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Which would be fine IF Kudoz had a way of filtering the questions shown so that, for example, I can choose NOT to display questions from "not logged in" in the list, not discover it when I've already opened it.
For the record, there are a few ways of filtering KudoZ notifications by e-mail (not sure about on-site display of questions):
Any member, platinum or not, can for instance disable notification of all "Easy" questions, which means that you won't be notified of any questions asked by unregistered members (since they can only ask Easy questions).
In addition, Platinum members have the following question notification options:
- from anyone
- from registered members only
- from Platinum members only
I too would welcome the option of excluding specific askers from my notifications. This has already been talked about, and it might already be on ProZ's todo list.
Endre
| | | | Ian M-H (X)
United States
Local time: 22:26
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Fair points... | Mar 30, 2005 |
Nesrin made a couple of points:
Nesrin wrote:
1) German>Arabic line resources are severely lacking, and I [...] may decide post the question on the German>English page, and then take it from there [...].
2) Most of those questions you refer to (which askers could have answered themselves if they had done some basic research) are indeed asked by translators whose native language is one of the languages in the pair.
[/quote]
Number 1 is a good example of thoroughly legitimate use of KudoZ to ask a question in a pair that doesn't include a confirmed native language. But it would be covered by a requirement that an asker has a certain amount of KudoZ. The problem is not good translators asking questions but (often anonymous or semi-anonymous) askers trying to translate texts that they should never have taken on in the first place and/or translating into languages in which they lack competence...
As for Nesrin's second point: I've not researched this but I'm happy to take it on trust. Depressing!
Ian
| | | | Ian M-H (X)
United States
Local time: 22:26
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Fun is fine, but some things ain't... | Mar 30, 2005 |
Vladimir Dubisskiy wrote:
I would not take KudoZ so seriously doZ had been actually created for fun [...]
[/quote]
Fair point and thanks for your thoughts - but there's nothing wrong with taking fun seriously And some of the questions (or floods of questions) detract from the fun...
Ian
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| Restrict KudoZ askers working into non-native languages? | Mar 30, 2005 |
Ian Harknett wrote:
The problem is not good translators asking questions but (often anonymous or semi-anonymous) askers trying to translate texts that they should never have taken on in the first place and/or translating into languages in which they lack competence...
Thanks for starting this important thread, Ian. I'm always glad to see people looking for ways to make this site an even better workplace for language professionals.
I'd like to make two points regarding your proposal:
1. There are Germans who've lived in the US for 20 years or longer and are better translators into English than I am. Their native language is German, so how can we make sure they are not filtered out along with those who should be?
2. I'm in favor of:
Automatic referral to glossaries and online sources before being permitted to ask a question.
There are questions that shouldn't be asked in KudoZ at all, including "easy" questions. If someone wants to know how to translate "dog" into German, he should be politely directed to an online dictionary (Leo, for example). The current KudoZ rules already address the issue but askers continue to ignore the rule:
"Rule 1: Use KudoZ to ask for a translation only after you have consulted dictionaries, the Internet and the ProZ.com glossaries (KudoZ >Search Glossaries in the menu). If you have found translations elsewhere but still want to ask, include an explanation of what you have found--and why you are asking anyway--with your question."
[Edited at 2005-03-30 18:52]
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 05:26
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Just connect kudoZ answers with kudoZ points | Mar 30, 2005 |
The idea I've been `lobbying' for a long time by now.
It's so simple: as a newcomer you get, say, 20 question points. Then you spend it: 1 point per answer. If you won kudoZ points, they are added to your question points.
If you don't have any question points you may ask only in `Easy (non-pro)' area. But those who answer you in this area get no kudoz points. Even if you have question points you may select if you ask a question in `Non-point' or `Point' area. The latter... See more The idea I've been `lobbying' for a long time by now.
It's so simple: as a newcomer you get, say, 20 question points. Then you spend it: 1 point per answer. If you won kudoZ points, they are added to your question points.
If you don't have any question points you may ask only in `Easy (non-pro)' area. But those who answer you in this area get no kudoz points. Even if you have question points you may select if you ask a question in `Non-point' or `Point' area. The latter costs you question points (and gives kudoZ points to answerers), the former costs no question points but does not give points to answerers - and thus decrease your chances to get nice answer.
So simple, so natural -- `give-and-take' basis! Still, such system does not prevent occasional askers to ask as many questions as they wish. Totally free, simple and balnced! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Aren't we trying to solve an already solved problem? | Mar 30, 2005 |
As I understand the new directory, only Pro points are counted to rank and list freelancers. Total points (Easy and Pro) will still appear on one's profile but will not affect the "ranking." "Easy" questions can be ignored without any effect on one's "ranking."
Still, I would favor a new rule redefining who can ask Pro questions: only VIDded members would be able to ask Pro questions. All others will only be able to ask "Easy" questions.
Certainly, there are many goo... See more As I understand the new directory, only Pro points are counted to rank and list freelancers. Total points (Easy and Pro) will still appear on one's profile but will not affect the "ranking." "Easy" questions can be ignored without any effect on one's "ranking."
Still, I would favor a new rule redefining who can ask Pro questions: only VIDded members would be able to ask Pro questions. All others will only be able to ask "Easy" questions.
Certainly, there are many good professional that are not ProZ VIDded members, but if fair advanced warning is given that this suggested rule would apply, I believe that true professionals will take all the necessary steps to be VIDded.
Any opinions?
Regards to all,
Luis ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I like Kirill's idea | Mar 30, 2005 |
I see too many people with 10000/0 asked/answered these days
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| Another reason why it is not such a good idea | Mar 31, 2005 |
You are restricted on how many native languages you can declare (2 is the maximum).
| | | | | I agree that there is a problem. Other strategies may work more effectively | Mar 31, 2005 |
But before we even get a strategy, ProZ needs to rededicate KudoZ to being a place on the web for serious professionals who want to have the option of mutual collegial consultation when a genuine need arises, rather than a place on the web for indivicuals who just want to:
1. Figure out the meaning of a foreign expression that came in a chat room or that a colleague frequently uses to tease office mates;
2. Carry on a pen-pal relationship with someone who does not share... See more But before we even get a strategy, ProZ needs to rededicate KudoZ to being a place on the web for serious professionals who want to have the option of mutual collegial consultation when a genuine need arises, rather than a place on the web for indivicuals who just want to:
1. Figure out the meaning of a foreign expression that came in a chat room or that a colleague frequently uses to tease office mates;
2. Carry on a pen-pal relationship with someone who does not share the same language;
3. Avoid the pitfalls of free online machine translation service without paying for human translation service;
4. Express undying love or propose marriage in a foreign tongue to make a stronger impression;
5. Collect the expression “hello” or “peace on earth” in all known languages;
6. Learn how to say “that is a very nice skirt, can I feel the fabric?” and a host of other social expressions in Italian before flying to Florence.
7. Have a free reading-comprehension coaching service while reading a novel in a foreign language above their level;
8. Give an Arabic name to their Arabian horse or Arabian horse ranch;
9. Have their company’s latest promotional slogans translated into the language of their next international marketing region without having to pay for the service.
10. Finish a paid translation job they accepted but for which they do not have the requisite knowledge of the field or the language (sometimes both the source and target languages);
11. Avoid using (or buying) a dictionary;
12. Avoid online topic and terminology research;
13. Avoid asking the client to clarify the intended meaning or whether a particular passage contains an error;
Once ProZ has made a determination about the purpose of KudoZ, it is not so difficult to curb abusive questions, defined as any questions that frustrate the declared purpose of KudoZ. This would include two basic categories:
1. Unprofessional questions (such as questions falling under 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 above):
2. Anti-professional questions (such as questions falling under 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 above).
Once these have been defined as abusive, then moderators would be well-armed to direct askers to use KudoZ constructively. If squashing is called for, for instance, the reason stated should reflect this professional stance of KudoZ. It is, however, possible to even curb the need for squashing by creating a quarantive state for questions that require some administrative communication between the moderator and asker before the question is either opened for public participation or closed. For instance, the moderator may wish to direct the asker to an online dictionary that the asker is not aware of. If the dictionary definitions given fail to address a particular context, the asker would be directed to clarify his/her exact need so that answerers do not simply throw dictionary definitions at askers. And so on.
So restricting the questions based on pre-declared language pairs may not be realistic, but there are other remedies. The first step, however, is a strategic statement about purpose. Is KudoZ to be understood as just a fancy alternative to dictionaries and online topic and terminology search that we all do (for those who do not know how to do it or simply do not want to do it since others will do it for them free of charge), or is it something above and beyond that, something that no dictionary could possibly provide? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Beginners ask a lot, get wiser, and then start answering... | Mar 31, 2005 |
I was lucky enough to work in-house for five years with some really helpful colleagues, so they answered many elementary questions for me.
Now I am able to earn quite a lot of KudoZ points... (medium-small languages admittedly, but one is English!). Nevertheless, it is very often other people's experience I am passing on.
So relating questions asked to questions answered would hamper just the beginners who need help most, and we all began somewhere!
Perhaps... See more I was lucky enough to work in-house for five years with some really helpful colleagues, so they answered many elementary questions for me.
Now I am able to earn quite a lot of KudoZ points... (medium-small languages admittedly, but one is English!). Nevertheless, it is very often other people's experience I am passing on.
So relating questions asked to questions answered would hamper just the beginners who need help most, and we all began somewhere!
Perhaps it would help to limit the number of questions from 'not logged in' and 'not VIDed' askers, but I have also been very irritated lately by whole series of very elementary questions from the same asker, who I believe is VID, platinum and all the rest. I delete all KudoZ mails from one particular asker unopened...
I have to admit I go way out of my own field and languages occasionally - I get Dutch and French quotations in a regular proofing job, and while I can work them out or ask the client most of the time, I have been most grateful for KudoZ help where all else has failed for me. For anyone just a bit up-to-date in those languages, my questions are probably elementary - but there are some really helpful people out there - thanks!
I disconnect all KudoZ for a few days if it annoys me or when I'm too busy, and this restores my patience miraculously when I get back! It's been said before - but it is still true...
Nothing is perfect in this world, but at least ProZ helps us to keep improving!
PS:
I had not seen Fuad Yahya's comments when I wrote the above, but I heartily agree.
It might be an idea to find some way of keeping KudoZ mainly for professionals. A lot of the answers are already there by now, so the 'I love you' and 'Happy Christmas' types should simply be squashed with a reminder about looking in the glossaries first.
[Edited at 2005-03-31 09:13] ▲ Collapse
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