| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Restrict KudoZ askers working into non-native languages? Thread poster: Ian M-H (X)
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Özden Arıkan 
Germany
Local time: 14:38
English to Turkish
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| More separation needed, indeed | Apr 3, 2005 |
I have to agree with those suggesting that the two KudoZ categories should be separated in a more explicit way. It's worth noting that many people tend to think of Easy as "an easy language question as opposed to a difficult one". We really need to emphasize the distinction as so aptly put by Michele, Fuad, Kim and others. How about changing the names of the categories altogether, accompanied by the new explanations as suggested by Michele... See more I have to agree with those suggesting that the two KudoZ categories should be separated in a more explicit way. It's worth noting that many people tend to think of Easy as "an easy language question as opposed to a difficult one". We really need to emphasize the distinction as so aptly put by Michele, Fuad, Kim and others. How about changing the names of the categories altogether, accompanied by the new explanations as suggested by Michele?
LL and LP for example: questions by Language Learners, and those by Language Professionals? ▲ Collapse
| | | | juvera
Local time: 13:38
English to Hungarian
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| Of separation and restriction... | Apr 4, 2005 |
It seems to me, that the KudoZ problem is more acute in certain language pairs than others, so it is really their problem first of all.
Secondly, the native/non-native argument. I happen to be a native speaker of a "minor" minority language, Hungarian, and I can tell you, there are very few native (say) English speaking people, who's knowledge of Hungarian is good, AND chose to earn a living by translating it. Probably there are even less Italian or Japanese, who do it. So some of us tran... See more It seems to me, that the KudoZ problem is more acute in certain language pairs than others, so it is really their problem first of all.
Secondly, the native/non-native argument. I happen to be a native speaker of a "minor" minority language, Hungarian, and I can tell you, there are very few native (say) English speaking people, who's knowledge of Hungarian is good, AND chose to earn a living by translating it. Probably there are even less Italian or Japanese, who do it. So some of us translate into other languages, - admittedly, with varying success. There is of course something called proof-reading...
Third, if the state of affairs is such, that you insist on separation, it will have to be decided, whether the system should apply to all language pairs, even if they only come up with half a dozen questions a month, or less. Where are you going to draw the line?
If somebody works comfortably in three languages, the division would mean "easy" A+A, B+B, C+C, A>B, A>C, B>C, C>A, C>B, B>A, then "pro" A+A, B+B, C+C, A>B, A>C, B>C, C>A, C>B, B>A combinations to be involved in, unless they abandon the "easy" to beginners and foreigners, who will be glad to be able to answer some questions. (I would be very interested to see the glossaries of these questions in a few month time.)
If you insist on separation, it may be only desirable in a handful of language combinations (if they vote for it), and the only sensible way to do it - as a couple of people suggested - to separate it to "Visitors to the site, students and beginners" and "Professional translators' KudoZ". ▲ Collapse
| | | | Hermeneutica
Switzerland
Local time: 14:38
Dutch to English
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| Eliminate the lazy and the scroungers, not the curious "sponges" | Apr 7, 2005 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
A lot of the answers are already there by now, so the 'I love you' and 'Happy Christmas' types should simply be squashed with a reminder about looking in the glossaries first.
[Edited at 2005-03-31 09:13]
This may well be the best solution. I see nothing wrong with wanting to find, say, a good Hungarian name for, say, a stray kitten picked up while on holiday there. Or finding how to say something to please someone we know in their language [we might end up learning it!] ... or figuring out a colloquial expression, esp. if from the modern media, which either nobody has been able to explain properly [it certainly won't be in dictionaries yet! - and have you tried asking monolingual native speakers to explain a word or made up expression?] or which, while we understand roughly what it means, we are still unable to correlate to the best equivalent in our native language.
The other thing is that I feel moderators should take reports of suspected abuse a little more seriously [like when an agency offering peanuts asks a whole series of relatively simple questions, yet marked "Pro" ... what do you think the reason might be ?? or ... the same person clearly getting their translation done for free ... or ... people who ask tons of questions and answer none, or disproportionately few]. There are ways of determining this, instead of simply saying "people are allowed 15 questions so we don't consider this abuse" or whatever. Also I would suggest that people who don't grade answers [especially the "amateur" kind - a certain "Buttercup" comes to mind, who asked lots of very interesting questions about colloquial EN appearing in novels he/she was reading at the time, but barely ever bothered to grade, which rather spoils the fun, and, let's face it, we all like a bit of KudoZ for our trouble ...]are banned or at least supervised.
On another tack, as someone else said, you are only allowed to declare two native languages on ProZ. Well, I have three, and translate into all of them. I live in a fourth-language country, and although sometimes I can pass for native in the spoken realm, writing formal letters, grant, loan, etc. applications is a different matter ["a different pair of sleeves", as they say here!], and we go back to the top, only in the reverse direction.
There is no question, KudoZ help us all learn more about our working languages and others if we "look in" for fun. In that sense, the more the better. And, yes, I scan the subject lines and if I don't know, I am not interested or I have no time, the question messages go in the trash, forthwith.
Best to all
Dee
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cchat
French to English
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| freedom of speech | Apr 9, 2005 |
I have only recently discovered ProZ, and am not a paying member. Then again, I am not a translator, I'm a language teacher. I personally wouldn't dream of asking questions without "paying for the priviledge", but I really appreciate being able to offer answers, and to learn from the interesting exchanges on some questions. I don't get KudoZ questions sent to me, I check them out on site when I have time, and join in answering when I feel I have something to offer. This seems to me reasonable be... See more I have only recently discovered ProZ, and am not a paying member. Then again, I am not a translator, I'm a language teacher. I personally wouldn't dream of asking questions without "paying for the priviledge", but I really appreciate being able to offer answers, and to learn from the interesting exchanges on some questions. I don't get KudoZ questions sent to me, I check them out on site when I have time, and join in answering when I feel I have something to offer. This seems to me reasonable behaviour.
I have a son who is considering becoming a translator and I like the idea of this community for translators, (and interested bystanders, like myself). ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Very reasonable | Apr 9, 2005 |
cchat wrote:
I ... am not a paying member ... I really appreciate being able to offer answers ... This seems to me reasonable behaviour.
The reasonableness is yours to claim, and I commend you for it. There are many reasonable, responsible participants out there. The problem is that there are also irresponsible participants, bad apples that spoil the barrels. To maintain the participation of people like you who appriciate what ProZ has to offer but do not see membership in ProZ as a vital investment in their career, I have suggested (without success) a threshold level of paid membership (around $1 a month) just to instill a sense of "buying into the site's ethos." I think that is a reasonable measure for a site where everybody wants to be a member, not only language teachers who dig linguistic discussions. Among other things, such a measure would guard against those who would register under a number of identities.
Please continue to participate. And when ProZ decides to establish a low-intensity membership level, I hope you will not leave us.
| | | | Ian M-H (X)
United States
Local time: 08:38
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Cash isn't the problem... | Apr 10, 2005 |
Just a quick thought:
Fuad Yahya wrote: have suggested (without success) a threshold level of paid membership (around $1 a month) just to instill a sense of "buying into the site's ethos."[/quote]
The suggestion has indeed been made a few times, and I can see its superficial appeal. But isn't cchat actually a rather good example of someone contributing to ProZ *without* paying money to the site?
I would find it even better if such members chose to have profiles with a name and brief details, so that people would have an idea who is answering their questions, but I don't see any evidence that cchat has failed to grasp the site's "ethos" or that paying would somehow make a difference.
Stick around, cchat - when it comes to the question of KudoZ behaviour, you're clearly *not* one of our 'problems'!
Best regards,
Ian
| | | | | Cash is not the problem, but it can be part of the solution | Apr 10, 2005 |
Ian Harknett wrote:
But isn't cchat actually a rather good example of someone contributing to ProZ *without* paying money to the site?
Of course; cchat is a living proof that being a non-paying but responsible citizen of ProZ is within the realm of possibility. To the best of my knowledge, no one has disputed that possibility yet.
The dispute is about the other side of the possibility coin: we have irresponsible participants. Their number is not the issue; it is the size of the problem caused by their behavior that has been the subject of numerous, protracted, intense discussions.
My point is that having to register and pay, even nominally, is a powerful incentive to think seriously before registering whether one is ready for the responsibilities of membership. If the answer is no, then the registration and dues requirements will be a strong incentive to remain a casual visitor, with no questions or answers posted on KudoZ, but with full surfing and searching capability. If the answer is yes but the registrant is not in need of the full advantages of a platinum membership, then a nominal level of membership needs to be made available so that no one with serious, responsible intentions would be averse to paying.
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| 27 non-stop questions between two foreign languages | Apr 13, 2005 |
Today on the French-English site, someone working between two (for her)non-native languages posted 27 questions in 2 hours (to be added to the 6 or so from yesterday) all from the same doc and all easily found with a (very little) bit of research.
What really has me amazed is not the incredible abuse of the system (halted only because a Moderator intervened and blocked further questions), but the fact that people kept on answering each and every question, peers added comments and not a si... See more Today on the French-English site, someone working between two (for her)non-native languages posted 27 questions in 2 hours (to be added to the 6 or so from yesterday) all from the same doc and all easily found with a (very little) bit of research.
What really has me amazed is not the incredible abuse of the system (halted only because a Moderator intervened and blocked further questions), but the fact that people kept on answering each and every question, peers added comments and not a single question was squashed. One or two people said that enough had been asked, but each question was answered-even the idea of 'boycotting' the questions never came up.
How can we stop and/or discourage such abuse of the site as long as there are members only too willing to keep providing answers?
There are other language combination sites where she would have been squashed at around question 10 or 11, but that was not the case on the Fr-En site.
Surely the Kudoz points can't be THAT important-and in any case, she listed nearly all questions as 'easy'. Insult to injury imo.
Point is, this can be discussed until we're blue in the face, but if peers don't want to stop it, it will just go on .. and on ... and... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Cannot squash questions because too many have been asked | Apr 13, 2005 |
I have often wanted to squash the umpteenth question from the same asker (for example: there is a very nice guy asking 10-15 questions _every day_ in the Eng-Rus for the last 2 weeks or so from the same user manual) but guidelines for squashing questions quite clearly state that you are NOT ALLOWED to squash a question just because someone has asked too many.
As for the fact that people keep providing answers, well they want points and to them there is nothing better than loads of q... See more I have often wanted to squash the umpteenth question from the same asker (for example: there is a very nice guy asking 10-15 questions _every day_ in the Eng-Rus for the last 2 weeks or so from the same user manual) but guidelines for squashing questions quite clearly state that you are NOT ALLOWED to squash a question just because someone has asked too many.
As for the fact that people keep providing answers, well they want points and to them there is nothing better than loads of questions. I have long reverted to answering only questions (with the occasional exception) that are a) In my fields b) I find interesting and c) don't come from abusers but others may not feel the same way, in fact when I first came to Proz, I would answer just about any question I thought myself capable of answering just to get some points! Just ignore those questions yourself and relax! ▲ Collapse
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