A council has complained that “stop” markings on Welsh roads are displayed in English only.
Llandwrog Community Council, near Caernarfon, wrote to Gwynedd council to complain that the safety instruction, which is displayed at critical locations, should also appear in Welsh.
But Gwynedd council responded by saying that highway regulations and Welsh dictionaries accept “stop” as a Welsh term.
And a language expert said the verb “stopio” had been used in Welsh since the 15th century. But he said “stop” without a suffix would not be idiomatic in Welsh. More.
See: Wales Online
Local time: 06:21
Member (2006)
English to Russian
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The article is published at http://www.walesonline.co.uk/, a site that is English only, which poses a question: is Welsh really relevant today?
Sweden
Local time: 05:21
Member (2012)
English to Swedish
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United Kingdom
Local time: 04:21
French to English
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However, it does highlight some interesting attitudes/misconceptions about language, for example:
- the official in question seems not to understand that most Welsh speakers are bilingual, and code-switching is often the norm among bilinguals
- who says a language has to be "pure", and what does that really mean anywa... See more
However, it does highlight some interesting attitudes/misconceptions about language, for example:
- the official in question seems not to understand that most Welsh speakers are bilingual, and code-switching is often the norm among bilinguals
- who says a language has to be "pure", and what does that really mean anyway? (The words/sounds/syllables of a language generally all 'came from somewhere' -- they didn't spring into being exclusively for that single language.)
- why would people need a "licence" to use English, Portuguese, Nahuatl or any other words they feel like using? And why would Gwynedd council by the authority on such a licence...?
- although interpretable as a word, "STOP!" painted in white on a red background is also just a series of coloured splodges at the end of the day, just like any other sign that you could interpret. Does it actually matter what series of splodges you use at the end of the day, so long as everybody is familiar with which series of splodges you use. Perhaps there are other splodges used on different road signs could also cause social outcry -- what's so special about this one?
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As I say, all very fascinating... but I would expect a council to have more pressing issues to concern itself with. ▲ Collapse
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:21
Hebrew to English
The article is published at http://www.walesonline.co.uk/, a site that is English only, which poses a question: is Welsh really relevant today?
It is if you live in Wales (or even England to a degree).
United States
Local time: 23:21
Spanish to English
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Road signs are, at least in Britain, often used as a way to keep languages alive, and an effective way to show these small languages to the public, even if most people (in Wales) understand English.
Do you really mean to tell us that there are people who live in Wales who don't understand English? It is hard for me to believe that even the most rustic inhabitants of that nation would not have, at minimum, a strong working knowledge of English.
FWIW, I don't think road signs impacting on the safety of motorists and pedestrians are the proper locus for efforts aimed at linguistic self-preservation (i.e., within a geographical area where it is known that large numbers of people travel who do not have knowledge of the language that is the object of said efforts). Toponyms, however, would seem fair game.
Related question:
Is there some linguistic category that covers languages like Welsh, Irish, Scots Gaelic, Basque, and Catalan whose speakers are also fluent in (and often more conversant in) a second language (in other words, languages that, for all intents and purposes, lack uninlingual speakers)?
Sweden
Local time: 05:21
Member (2012)
English to Swedish
+ ...
Road signs are, at least in Britain, often used as a way to keep languages alive, and an effective way to show these small languages to the public, even if most people (in Wales) understand English.
Do you really mean to tell us that there are people who live in Wales who don't understand English? It is hard for me to believe that even the most rustic inhabitants of that nation would not have, at minimum, a strong working knowledge of English.
FWIW, I don't think road signs impacting on the safety of motorists and pedestrians are the proper locus for efforts aimed at linguistic self-preservation (i.e., within a geographical area where it is known that large numbers of people travel who do not have knowledge of the language that is the object of said efforts). Toponyms, however, would seem fair game.
Related question:
Is there some linguistic category that covers languages like Welsh, Irish, Scots Gaelic, Basque, and Catalan whose speakers are also fluent in (and often more conversant in) a second language (in other words, languages that, for all intents and purposes, lack uninlingual speakers)?
Well, yes, perhaps I should have said that not all Welsh people feel that English is the language they are most confident using. This is most true for elderly people, especially a few among them who know quite little English, but even younger generations can feel more at home with Welsh. Therefore, having road signs in that language, is not at all wrong IMO. It'd be different if Welsh was only a 2nd language to everyone in that country. And I'm not sure safety is that much of an issue, since all road signs also exist in English of course. I don't know how it is in Wales, but where I live, almost all road signs with text on them refer to place-names, and these are probably the ones that have been bilingual in Wales in the past, from what I can gether from the article.
[Edited at 2012-10-31 19:24 GMT]
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:21
German to English
I believe I have seen standard "STOP" signs in several EU countries. Having thought about the significance of my observation for probably several seconds, maybe more, I have concluded that effectively it's not a word but a pictogram conveying the command STOP.
Difficult to grasp as a concept? Not the worst, surely.
Spain
Local time: 05:21
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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To me, this is one more case of the a kind of tyranny whereby a language has more rights than the people, and whereby a minority feels it is their right to impose a burden to an alienated majority that is terrified of being accused of tyranny.
This could be an interesting topic for a dinner party, but nothing more.
Spain
Local time: 05:21
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
I believe I have seen standard "STOP" signs in several EU countries. Having thought about the significance of my observation for probably several seconds, maybe more, I have concluded that effectively it's not a word but a pictogram conveying the command STOP.
Difficult to grasp as a concept? Not the worst, surely.
Not difficult to grasp at all. I entirely agree, although I have met a very prestigious medical translator who spent 15 minutes of his medical translation course trying to prove that the word is not a symbol and that we are being cheated by our governments. He has quite an impressive collection of pictures depicting the STOP sign translated to numerous languages all over the world.
All STOP signs in Spain (and I am talking about a population that is 15 times that of Wales) show the word "STOP".
The fact that the word STOP only designates the location of a stop sign help us describe such locations perfectly well with a single word. It is simply "un STOP" (we pronounce it "estop", or "estó" depending on the regions). If it was changed to "PARE", it would feel ridiculous to say that you stopped at a "PARE".
Traffic signs are not a natural language, and there is simply no need to change something everyone understands perfectly well all over the world.
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:21
English
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That being said, I think it's a bit daft to complain about th... See more
That being said, I think it's a bit daft to complain about the use of stop on a road sign. As other posters have said, it's an internationally recognised symbol, so in that sense it's gone beyond being a Welsh/English linguistic issue. As for place names, many of those in Wales and Scotland are Anglicised (mis-spelt) versions of the proper name, so I'd have no objection to reverting to the real spellings. At least that way, the words actually mean something. ▲ Collapse
Netherlands
Local time: 05:21
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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He has quite an impressive collection of pictures depicting the STOP sign translated to numerous languages all over the world.
Here is a collection too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign
The bilingual stop sign is not uncommon, and even mono-lingual stop signs in the minority language of a region is not uncommon, and not misunderstood, because it has the same shape and colours as the other stop signs elsewhere in that country.
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:21
Hebrew to English
....that most other signs are bilingual the second you cross the border into Wales (ARAF!), I don't see the harm in making STOP! signs bilingual too.
Also, given that they are fighting for the survival of a minority language, some "tyranny" cannot be avoided I don't think. Now, if they were arguing for Welsh-only signs, then I might agree....
France
Local time: 05:21
French to English
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French uses the word "stop" and has incorporated a franglais verb "stopper" into the French language. This coexists happily with the French "arrêter" as "stopper" means to stop decisively... See more
French uses the word "stop" and has incorporated a franglais verb "stopper" into the French language. This coexists happily with the French "arrêter" as "stopper" means to stop decisively or abruptly, while "arrêter" is used for every other form of "to stop". The Welsh could consider taking similar revenge on the English language. ▲ Collapse
Portugal
Local time: 04:21
[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I believe I have seen standard "STOP" signs in several EU countries.
All STOP signs in Spain (and I am talking about a population that is 15 times that of Wales) show the word "STOP".
The fact that the word STOP only designates the location of a stop sign help us describe such locations perfectly well with a single word. It is simply "un STOP" (we pronounce it "estop", or "estó" depending on the regions). If it was changed to "PARE", it would feel ridiculous to say that you stopped at a "PARE".
Traffic signs are not a natural language, and there is simply no need to change something everyone understands perfectly well all over the world.
All drivers know what to do when they see that sign - even those who are very proud of their Portuguese heritage.
Spain
Local time: 05:21
Member (2011)
Spanish to English
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Years ago, someone told me that the most important aspect of a 'Stop' sign is its shape. Apparently they are usually hexagonal so that even when they're covered in snow, drivers know they have to stop.
Whether or not that's true, it seems quite logical to me.
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