| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Can translation be taught? Thread poster: Raf Uzar
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| Maybe a "Famous Translators' School"? | Apr 3, 2009 |
Has anyone seen a book of matches advertising a Famous Translators' School (or similar)? I know they're out there for artists and writers.
Funny thing, though...Of all the books I've read and enjoyed (and we're talking a big number here), not one was written by a graduate of one of these schools.
| | | | Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 05:36
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Michael J.W. Beijer:
Is that a 'yes' or a 'no'?
| | | | Williamson 
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:36
Flemish to English
+ ...
I am not going to elaborate on the entire program of such schools, it would take me too far. However, at these schools, you have to choose two foreign languages and you are taught a language, say Russian from 0 upto source-language translation level or upto basic interpreting level.
| | | | | Yes, but not to everyone and not all can be taught to do it well! | Apr 4, 2009 |
It always puts a smile on my face when the biggest questions within the translation science are sporadically brought up by someone on forums like this one. The more you know about the core nature of translation the more you would have to agree with for example I. A. Richards’ statement that “translation is perhaps the most complex event in the history of the cosmos” (1953).
We do not have travel far back in time to find proof that translation used to be considered as a “gift... See more It always puts a smile on my face when the biggest questions within the translation science are sporadically brought up by someone on forums like this one. The more you know about the core nature of translation the more you would have to agree with for example I. A. Richards’ statement that “translation is perhaps the most complex event in the history of the cosmos” (1953).
We do not have travel far back in time to find proof that translation used to be considered as a “gift” that some people miraculously developed and which made them capable of turning text into another language.
-This point of view is however obsolete within today’s translation science. I assume one of the key reasons why the discussion about whether translation can be taught or if it is an inborn gift keeps popping up every now and then has to do with Noam Chromsky’s theory that language and the human ability to develop language is a hereditary feature that differs from person to person with roots in a build-in language mechanism. No one has yet managed to prove this theory wrong.
But saying that translation can be taught is of course a generalization and is not the same as saying that all people have the same basis for learning (!). For example, not all people wish to learn and many people have, at least to some extend, a learning disability of some sort - the most well-known is of course dyslexia (word-blindness).
Also, not all people have language awareness which can be defines as “a person’s sensitivity to and conscious awareness of the nature of language and its role in human life” (Donmall 1985:7). A good example could be trying to imagine a person you know or have met with the worst sense of occasion having to orally interpret what you say in an important situation to another language.
Point is, saying that translation can be taught is at all saying that everyone can be taught to translate well (!).
Keeping I. A. Richards’ statement in mind, acquiring translation competence is an extremely complex and never-ending process and for the same reason a very hot topic within translation science today.
According to Nord (1992), a translator must at least possess the following competences in order to be OR BECOME a competent translator:
1. Competence of text reception and analysis (situation, sender, recipient, function, linguistic and visual means)
2. Research competence (You must not be a human dictionary, it is more important that you know HOW to find the correct words)
3. Transfer competence (knowing how to make one’s knowledge into a translation)
4. Competence of text production (and textual knowledge, text, language stylistic conventions)
5. Competence of translation quality assessment (what is a good translation? Which kind of quality does the costumer expect?) [To this point it is important to add that measuring quality in the translation industry is often narrowed down to long-term costumer satisfaction, mostly, in terms of price and delivery (Zink 1995), this goes for both agencies and end clients.]
6. Linguistic and cultural competence (a MUST on both source and the target side)
Conclusively, it takes much more than subject knowledge within a niche subject like e.g. mechanics to be a translator.
Furthermore, it is important to keep the context surrounding the required competences in mind. Neubert (2000) has a list of 7 what he calls overall features that define the contextual working field of a translator.
1 Complexity
2 Heterogeneity
3 Approximation
4 Open-endedness
5 Creativity
6 Situationality
7 Historicity
1. Complexity
Neubert states that translation is more complex than any other field. Maybe that's why no one has come up with a generally accepted definition? And Neubert is far from the only one. In fact, I. A. Richards claimed the following in 1953: ”translation is perhaps the most complex We event in the history of the cosmos”. We know more about the space and galaxies than we know about the nature of translation.
2. Heterogeneity
The heterogeneity of competences, knowledge and experience required/demanded by a translator and which defines the field translation is unlimited.
3. Approximation
The subject competences/subject experiences/subject knowledge of a translator can NEVER exceed that of experts! The idea that translator should (besides being an expert of the culture and linguistic system of both target and source language) also be a trained lawyer; technician; engineer; construction specialist; doctor; astronaut (the list goes on and on) is completely absurd! If there were such a skilled person, then who could afford to use him/her?
4. Open-endedness
A translator must continuously improve, develop and adapt his or her existing contemporary knowledge to the past, present and sometimes even future. This could be technological improvements, new acts or laws (or changes), a competence very relevant in the EU countries, or the linguistic competences in case of new spelling rules ect. Therefore, a translator’s competences never reach an absolute level.
5. Creativity (keep language awareness in mind)
Creativity and translation are rarely put together in the same sentence but the do belong together because translation can be defined or seen as a result of conscious and (un)conscious creative thinking – especially in situations where translation is “impossible”. Within technical fields like mechanics you rarely find yourself in a situation where translation is impossible. Reason= they also have cars/screwdrivers/radios ect. ect. ect. ect. in other countries!! But within fields like law and other normative fields (By normative I mean a field regulated by a law, i.e. annual reports and the Accounts Act) you often have to translate challenging and difficult documents and every second word does not exist in the source language because the there are no parallel text in the source language because the target law does not exist in the source country because the system of government does not exist in the source country. What should a person do in a situation like this if not making use of creativity?
6. Situationality
A translator should be able to translate in both familiar and unknown situations. (If you disagree, then try to reading no. 3 and 5 again in order to understand Neubert’s point of view).
7. Historicity
Finally, Neubert states that a translator should have or learn the ability to adapt to the development of external factors and work conditions. It is of vital importance that a translator can keep up with the technical development within computers and IT and learn and use the common translation software and CAT tools.
The fact of the matter is, the more you know about translation in general - the more you realize how complex it is. People from the times of the Greek god Hermes to acknowledged contemporary language scientists like i. e. Nord (Nord by the way is a practician) and Neubert agree on the complexity of translation but even though people have agreed for thousands of years, they cannot agree on the true nature of translation. We know more about space and galaxies than we know about the nature of translation. To this day, no accepted definition of translation (translation quality and translation competence) exists.
Therefore, the answer to your question is open-ended. But my answer would have to be; yes, but not to everyone and not all can be taught to do it well.
Aaaargh now my coffee has gotten cold ▲ Collapse
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biankonera
Latvia
Local time: 06:36
Italian to Latvian
+ ...
I dont believe one can be taught translation just like I dont believe one can be taught to sing. I believe one who has a gift can go to a specialist school to learn how to use one's talents.
| | | | | It's like a craft | Apr 4, 2009 |
I believe that translating is comparable to a craft, such as a goldsmith' or carpenter's. Almost everyone can learn (or be taught) the general basics, but then, success or special awards can only be earned, if someone has a talent for it. And,
of course, as many already stated, the urge or will to do it play an important role
in it.
Annett
| | | | Paul Cohen
Greenland
Local time: 02:36
German to English
+ ...
| "Perhaps the most complex event..." | Apr 4, 2009 |
Anne Kjaer Iversen wrote:
The more you know about the core nature of translation the more you would have to agree with for example I. A. Richards’ statement that “translation is perhaps the most complex event in the history of the cosmos” (1953).
I hadn't heard that one before -- but I couldn't agree more. I also found the rest of your entry very enlightening, Anne.
That was enough musings on translation for nearly an entire pot of coffee to get cold.
| | | | keshab
Local time: 10:06
Member (2006)
English to Bengali
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Man is a translator by birth | Apr 4, 2009 |
Just you have to know another language. Whenever you have heard that language your brain automatically translates it into your mother tongue. Similar thing happens at the time of speak or write. Man can think only in the language which he knows since his birth. If your mother tongue is English then your mind will take every input in English and give your thought in English into that language as output. No matter that you are a scholar of German, French etc.
Therefore trans... See more Just you have to know another language. Whenever you have heard that language your brain automatically translates it into your mother tongue. Similar thing happens at the time of speak or write. Man can think only in the language which he knows since his birth. If your mother tongue is English then your mind will take every input in English and give your thought in English into that language as output. No matter that you are a scholar of German, French etc.
Therefore translation cannot be taught. All we can learn the right expression of our mind. Yes, but that is not true only for translation. In all subjects of humanities this expession can be taught. ▲ Collapse
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Louisa Berry
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:36
Member (2009)
German to English
| Disagree: You can think in a language other than your mother tongue | Apr 4, 2009 |
I have often found myself thinking in German, especially when I was living there, and I didnt translate it in my head into English... My brain knew what I was thinking. I often dream in German too. (and apparently if im drunk and half asleep and ppl start talking to me I will sometimes reply in German!)
| | | | Steven Capsuto
United States
Local time: 23:36
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Learning through exercise, discussion, example and correction | Apr 5, 2009 |
The most effective translation courses I had were ones in which we were given translation assignments to do at home, and then went through them in class sentence by sentence, discussing which students' versions were within the realm of acceptability and which were not, and why.
Over time, I believe everyone in these classes became far better translators than we were when we arrived.
In these courses we also read theory, but I don't think I learned a thing from that. I l... See more The most effective translation courses I had were ones in which we were given translation assignments to do at home, and then went through them in class sentence by sentence, discussing which students' versions were within the realm of acceptability and which were not, and why.
Over time, I believe everyone in these classes became far better translators than we were when we arrived.
In these courses we also read theory, but I don't think I learned a thing from that. I learned far more from the theory implicit in the discussions of exercises.
[Edited at 2009-04-05 03:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:36
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Louisa Fox wrote:
I have often found myself thinking in German, especially when I was living there, and I didnt translate it in my head into English... My brain knew what I was thinking. I often dream in German too. (and apparently if im drunk and half asleep and ppl start talking to me I will sometimes reply in German!)
Interesting statement.
I would dare say that what you state is actually based on a misunderstanding, although for the life of me I could never explain what I mean here how and why exactly.
I suspect ... that we actually do not, EVER, actually Think In A Language. When, as you say, one thinks that one has dreamt/thought in a particular language, I actually suspect that what is happening is something quite different altogether. I.e., we are actually not thinking in a particular language. But, as I said, I cannot prove this. It is only a feeling.
[Edited at 2009-04-05 03:11 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:36
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Raf Uzar wrote:
Michael J.W. Beijer:
Is that a 'yes' or a 'no'?
That is BOTH a yes, and a no. Sadly enough I seem to end up answering most questions in this way. This is because most questions are stated in such a way as to require either a positive or a negative answer. However: most questions are formulated 'incorrectly', hence my (useless/problematic) YES/NO answer(s).
Hmm.
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Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 05:36
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER | Beijer and Iversen | Apr 5, 2009 |
Michael J.W. Beijer:
Many thanks.
Anne Kjaer Iversen:
A wonderfully expansive answer. Many, many thanks.
Raf
| | | | | there's more to translation than performing dogs.... | Apr 5, 2009 |
First of all, let me say that I fully agree with Anne, who has managed to express, in erudite and therefore more convincing terms, the thoughts that were running through my head.
As with any discipline, there will always be those who are receptive to a particular subject, learn fast and exploit their knowledge to best effect. And there will always be those who struggle and will never progress beyond a certain point.
The problem with translating is that far too many peop... See more First of all, let me say that I fully agree with Anne, who has managed to express, in erudite and therefore more convincing terms, the thoughts that were running through my head.
As with any discipline, there will always be those who are receptive to a particular subject, learn fast and exploit their knowledge to best effect. And there will always be those who struggle and will never progress beyond a certain point.
The problem with translating is that far too many people underestimate the difficulties and the qualifications (in the broadest sense of the term) required to succeed in the profession. This phenomenon goes some way towards explaining why there are so many questions on sites such as this that have many of us tearing out our hair (or what's left of it).
Far be it from me to suggest that the only good or the best translators are those who have specifically studied the subject. Indeed, over my career I have come across some perfectly good translators who have 'come in through the back door'. These people have natural talent and have learned "on the job". On the other hand, those who are accepted (and I use the term advisedly because normally the number of places is limited and entrance is competitive) for the good translation (interpreting) schools almost always complete the course and emerge at the end with at least the minimum bases to branch out into the profession. The fact that these tend to be the people who obtain posts in international organisations, etc. is also no surprise (contacts, paper qualifications...). They are usually university graduates (in languages but not always) and go on these courses to perfect their skills, learn the tricks of the trade and meet the "right" people. If they are not judged to have the necessary basic talents, they will not be selected for the course.
Once on the course, there is a great deal they can learn, a lot of it they will absorb without really realising it. It is only at the end that they will be able to appreciate the distance they have come. I speak from personal experience.
When I started my course, several years back, I was not quite sure what - if anything - I would learn. My main motivation for attending was networking and sharpening my competitive edge. Later I came to realise how valuable my apprenticeship had been.
You can teach virtually anyone anything - to a degree. Beyond a certain point, it is the individual's particular talent for the profession that will enable him or her to be good at the job. It is just a pity that there are so many amateurs and bottomfeeders pulling the community down and damaging its reputation... but that is not the point at issue here.
To sum up, "yes", you can teach translation but "no" you cannot teach it to every Tom, Dick and Harry... (with apologies if one of these happens to be your name..)
[Edited at 2009-04-05 12:48 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:36
Flemish to English
+ ...
| Don't agree... | Apr 5, 2009 |
keshab wrote:
Just you have to know another language. Whenever you have heard that language your brain automatically translates it into your mother tongue. Similar thing happens at the time of speak or write. Man can think only in the language which he knows since his birth. If your mother tongue is English then your mind will take every input in English and give your thought in English into that language as output. No matter that you are a scholar of German, French etc.
Therefore translation cannot be taught. All we can learn the right expression of our mind. Yes, but that is not true only for translation. In all subjects of humanities this expession can be taught.
Disagree. Depends on the surroundings and situation. My mother's tongue was a native Flemish dialect with a limited vocabulary which forces to use the restricted code. I would not be able to function in the world if I used that language as a means of thought. When discussing in English or French, I simply think in my native language, but adapt to the surroundings and the people.
[Modifié le 2009-04-05 16:02 GMT]
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