Glossary entry (derived from question below)
German term or phrase:
Deklassement
English translation:
Being declassified/cast out w/explanation?
Added to glossary by
Helen Shiner
Aug 13, 2008 08:20
16 yrs ago
1 viewer *
German term
Deklassement
German to English
Art/Literary
Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
art history
This is a quote by Konrad Reich
Deklassement ist kein Unglück, unwürdig nur die künstliche Aufrechterhaltung eines unhaltbaren Zustandes
my thoughts on this so far:
Deklassement is no catastrophe, just the ignoble creative perpetuation of a indefensible condition
but what does it mean...and what's "Deklassement"
thanks all!
what comes before this, in case it's helpful:
Ein akustisches Dokument von großer Seltenheit sind Barlachs Lesungen aus dem Russischen Tagebuch, den Güstrower Fragmenten und aus dem Mittelstück seines Spiels in drei Stücken Der Findling. Aufgenommen im Oktober/November 1932, wurden sie niemals gesendet oder veröffentlicht: nach dem 30. Januar 1933 hatte niemand mehr den Mut dazu. So sind denn auch die danach geschriebenen Briefe erschütternde Zeugnisse für die Ohnmacht dieses Künstlers gegenüber Terror und Unterdrückung. Sie muten an wie ein Prolog, sie geben uns aber auch einen Begriff davon, was Barlach mit dem Satz meinte:
Deklassement ist kein Unglück, unwürdig nur die künstliche Aufrechterhaltung eines unhaltbaren Zustandes
my thoughts on this so far:
Deklassement is no catastrophe, just the ignoble creative perpetuation of a indefensible condition
but what does it mean...and what's "Deklassement"
thanks all!
what comes before this, in case it's helpful:
Ein akustisches Dokument von großer Seltenheit sind Barlachs Lesungen aus dem Russischen Tagebuch, den Güstrower Fragmenten und aus dem Mittelstück seines Spiels in drei Stücken Der Findling. Aufgenommen im Oktober/November 1932, wurden sie niemals gesendet oder veröffentlicht: nach dem 30. Januar 1933 hatte niemand mehr den Mut dazu. So sind denn auch die danach geschriebenen Briefe erschütternde Zeugnisse für die Ohnmacht dieses Künstlers gegenüber Terror und Unterdrückung. Sie muten an wie ein Prolog, sie geben uns aber auch einen Begriff davon, was Barlach mit dem Satz meinte:
Proposed translations
(English)
| 5 +3 | Being declassified |
Helen Shiner
|
References
| I think *Deklassement* in this case mean... |
hollstes (X)
|
| See http://www.zeit.de/1995/19/Nicht_... |
TonyTK
|
Change log
Aug 13, 2008 08:56: davidgreen changed "Field (specific)" from "History" to "Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting"
Aug 14, 2008 08:38: Helen Shiner changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/40542">davidgreen's</a> old entry - "Deklassement "" to ""Being declassified w/explanation?""
Proposed translations
+3
50 mins
Helen Shiner
France
France
Native in English
Specializes in field
France
Arts/Academic translator - Art historian
Native in: English 
Works in: German to English, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
279
Selected
Being declassified
Hi David, when the Nazis came to power most avabt-garde artists in Germany were classified as degenerate - 'entartet' and prohibited from working and exhibiting. Barlach became a special case because they couldn't decide amongst themselves whether he was, as an old man, just a throw back to an earlier phase of Nordic modernism, exponents of which were to be found amongst the Nazi party still at this early stage of Nazism, or whether he was, indeed, 'degenerate'. He was hugely harrassed by party functionaries and many of his sculptures were removed from their public sitings.
I would therefore suggest that your sentence should read something like: 'Being declassified is no catastrophe; the only unworthy thing is an artificial upholding of an intolerable situation.'
He was in great financial straits because he couldn't work properly and couldn't see the way forward.
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Note added at 51 mins (2008-08-13 09:12:12 GMT)
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Obviously that should read 'avant-garde'!!
Perhaps better 'the only unworthy thing would be to artificially uphold ...'
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Note added at 53 mins (2008-08-13 09:13:42 GMT)
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or as you yourself said 'perpetuate' instead of 'uphold'. Right, I'll stop fiddling with it....
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Note added at 2 hrs (2008-08-13 11:12:06 GMT)
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My confidence level refers to the explanation I give. Someone else may find a more felicitous way of expressing what is not a very felicitous term in the source text. In all my research on this issue - I am an art historian of this period - I have never seen this term specifically.
More context given here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art
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Note added at 2 hrs (2008-08-13 11:20:23 GMT)
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TonyTK - as I explained, Barlach was not declared, classified or whatever else as degenerate unlike many of his sculptor contemporaries, his was a special case. Suggest you make your own better suggestion.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2008-08-13 11:28:23 GMT)
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Whatever term is finally used to translate 'Deklassement' it cannot in this case be translated by being declared degenerate. It is not really about status here - that would not have bothered Barlach, it is about being neither one thing or the other. He neither was nor was not an acceptable artist in the eyes of the new regime. He was not banned nor could he effectively work or exhibit. He was in no-man's land, and that is what the term means. I would contend that the surrounding sentences should give the explanation that one word may be cannot. But someone may be inspired to come up with something better.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2008-08-13 11:49:20 GMT)
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This is a review of a book on exactly this subject with regard to Barlach. I don't have time today to go into any further detail or do any further research, but you will probably find it in Google books.
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=45351060655982
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Note added at 15 hrs (2008-08-13 23:29:10 GMT)
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Another suggestion, perhaps less hard on the ears: 'being cast out'.
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Note added at 1 day29 mins (2008-08-14 08:50:22 GMT) Post-grading
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If I have more time this afternoon, I will look through the extensive material I have on Barlach to see how others might have translated this - though most of the material is in German. It really is a tricky one. Barlach said this, or similar things often enough - are they his words in this case or Reich's paraphrasing? I wonder if 'demotion' doesn't sound a bit military or at least job-related, though you know the context better than me. Do you have a sense what it was particularly that caused B to say this on that occasion?
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Note added at 1 day8 hrs (2008-08-14 16:46:25 GMT) Post-grading
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Hi David, I don't want to interfer and you may already have moved on with this, but just to tell you that I haven't managed to find a translation of this particular quote anywhere. Paret doesn't use it. Some other terms have come to mind in the process and I wonder, if you still haven't alighted upon something whether you could make use of 'Being excluded' or 'denounced' or 'prohibited' or even 'rejected' none of which are really a translation, but might put you on the right track. Anyway, over to you now......
I would therefore suggest that your sentence should read something like: 'Being declassified is no catastrophe; the only unworthy thing is an artificial upholding of an intolerable situation.'
He was in great financial straits because he couldn't work properly and couldn't see the way forward.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 51 mins (2008-08-13 09:12:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Obviously that should read 'avant-garde'!!
Perhaps better 'the only unworthy thing would be to artificially uphold ...'
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 53 mins (2008-08-13 09:13:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
or as you yourself said 'perpetuate' instead of 'uphold'. Right, I'll stop fiddling with it....
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-08-13 11:12:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
My confidence level refers to the explanation I give. Someone else may find a more felicitous way of expressing what is not a very felicitous term in the source text. In all my research on this issue - I am an art historian of this period - I have never seen this term specifically.
More context given here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-08-13 11:20:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
TonyTK - as I explained, Barlach was not declared, classified or whatever else as degenerate unlike many of his sculptor contemporaries, his was a special case. Suggest you make your own better suggestion.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-08-13 11:28:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Whatever term is finally used to translate 'Deklassement' it cannot in this case be translated by being declared degenerate. It is not really about status here - that would not have bothered Barlach, it is about being neither one thing or the other. He neither was nor was not an acceptable artist in the eyes of the new regime. He was not banned nor could he effectively work or exhibit. He was in no-man's land, and that is what the term means. I would contend that the surrounding sentences should give the explanation that one word may be cannot. But someone may be inspired to come up with something better.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-08-13 11:49:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
This is a review of a book on exactly this subject with regard to Barlach. I don't have time today to go into any further detail or do any further research, but you will probably find it in Google books.
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=45351060655982
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2008-08-13 23:29:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Another suggestion, perhaps less hard on the ears: 'being cast out'.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day29 mins (2008-08-14 08:50:22 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
If I have more time this afternoon, I will look through the extensive material I have on Barlach to see how others might have translated this - though most of the material is in German. It really is a tricky one. Barlach said this, or similar things often enough - are they his words in this case or Reich's paraphrasing? I wonder if 'demotion' doesn't sound a bit military or at least job-related, though you know the context better than me. Do you have a sense what it was particularly that caused B to say this on that occasion?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day8 hrs (2008-08-14 16:46:25 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
Hi David, I don't want to interfer and you may already have moved on with this, but just to tell you that I haven't managed to find a translation of this particular quote anywhere. Paret doesn't use it. Some other terms have come to mind in the process and I wonder, if you still haven't alighted upon something whether you could make use of 'Being excluded' or 'denounced' or 'prohibited' or even 'rejected' none of which are really a translation, but might put you on the right track. Anyway, over to you now......
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "thanks for all the input, didn't realise this would be so complex! any thoughts on "demotion"?"
Reference comments
1 hr
Reference:
I think *Deklassement* in this case means something like *losing one's status*.
Robert Collins English French:
déclassement = (social, dans une hiérarchie) fall ou drop in status
This meaning is confirmed by Duden and the DWDS that only have the verb *deklassieren*:
DWDS: deklassịẹren〈franz.〉 jmdn. aus einer Gesellschaftsklasse ausstoßen oder innerhalb dieser Klasse degradieren, herabsetzen: jmd. ist deklassiert worden; /meist im Part. Prät./ deklassierte Elemente verletzen die Rechtsordnung; so ist er nichts als ein klapprig deklassierter Schreiber (Werfel Bernadette 402); der Künstler ist klassenlos, deklassiert von Geburt (Th. Mann 11,603)
Otherwise Helen's translation is perfect.
Robert Collins English French:
déclassement = (social, dans une hiérarchie) fall ou drop in status
This meaning is confirmed by Duden and the DWDS that only have the verb *deklassieren*:
DWDS: deklassịẹren〈franz.〉 jmdn. aus einer Gesellschaftsklasse ausstoßen oder innerhalb dieser Klasse degradieren, herabsetzen: jmd. ist deklassiert worden; /meist im Part. Prät./ deklassierte Elemente verletzen die Rechtsordnung; so ist er nichts als ein klapprig deklassierter Schreiber (Werfel Bernadette 402); der Künstler ist klassenlos, deklassiert von Geburt (Th. Mann 11,603)
Otherwise Helen's translation is perfect.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
TonyTK
: Precisely - it's related to the common "deklassieren".
1 hr
|
| neutral |
Helen Shiner
: But is not specifically about status as such - see my comments.
1 hr
|
2 hrs
Reference:
See
http://www.zeit.de/1995/19/Nicht_zerreissen_was_zusammengeho...
or
http://www.landesmuseum-oldenburg.niedersachsen.de/master/C4...
for the use of "deklassieren" in relation to "entartete Kunst".
This is related to the common verb "deklassieren" (often used to mean "outclass" in a sporting context). Here, it means something *like* "degradation", "put-down" (too colloquial), "belittlement" (not strong enough). Can't think of anything suitable off the top of my head.
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Note added at 2 Stunden (2008-08-13 11:16:58 GMT)
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(continued from comment on Helen's answer)
... I contend that most Germans would understand "Deklassement" in this context due to its connection with "deklassieren" - but would even your educated English reader understand "declassify" here?
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Note added at 3 Stunden (2008-08-13 11:27:57 GMT)
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Response to Helen's added comment: ((My confidence level refers to the explanation I give. Someone else may find a more felicitous way of expressing what is not a very felicitous term in the source text. In all my research on this issue - I am an art historian of this period - I have never seen this term specifically.))
My point exactly. Surely your confidence level should underline the suitability of the suggested translation rather than the accuracy of your explanation. Although I'm well read (and studied) in this period of history, I must certainly bow to your knowledge of the art world. But I maintain that "being declassified" not only doesn't fit the bill but is also open to misunderstanding.
http://www.zeit.de/1995/19/Nicht_zerreissen_was_zusammengeho...
or
http://www.landesmuseum-oldenburg.niedersachsen.de/master/C4...
for the use of "deklassieren" in relation to "entartete Kunst".
This is related to the common verb "deklassieren" (often used to mean "outclass" in a sporting context). Here, it means something *like* "degradation", "put-down" (too colloquial), "belittlement" (not strong enough). Can't think of anything suitable off the top of my head.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 Stunden (2008-08-13 11:16:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
(continued from comment on Helen's answer)
... I contend that most Germans would understand "Deklassement" in this context due to its connection with "deklassieren" - but would even your educated English reader understand "declassify" here?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 Stunden (2008-08-13 11:27:57 GMT)
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Response to Helen's added comment: ((My confidence level refers to the explanation I give. Someone else may find a more felicitous way of expressing what is not a very felicitous term in the source text. In all my research on this issue - I am an art historian of this period - I have never seen this term specifically.))
My point exactly. Surely your confidence level should underline the suitability of the suggested translation rather than the accuracy of your explanation. Although I'm well read (and studied) in this period of history, I must certainly bow to your knowledge of the art world. But I maintain that "being declassified" not only doesn't fit the bill but is also open to misunderstanding.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| neutral |
Helen Shiner
: Actually I am very happy with my translation also, as stated above it too has the taxinomic sense evident in the German/French./We'll have to agree to disagree on that; I do think it is clear in the English. Perhaps you could suggest something else?
46 mins
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... but perhaps not in English. I admire your tenacity, but surely the reader should not be expected to be familiar with German or French in order to understand the meaning.
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