Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
lieux de mémoire
English translation:
cultural heritage site
Added to glossary by
Hotrockmantis
May 17, 2011 16:24
13 yrs ago
7 viewers *
French term
lieux de mémoire
French to English
Marketing
Tourism & Travel
I am currently translating a tourist info brochure and have a problem with "lieux de mémoire" as in the sentence below :
Témoins d’un passé riche et mouvementé, les lieux de mémoire y sont plus nombreux qu’ailleurs.
I have tried "memorials" but that doesn't quite read correctly. Any help would be gratefully accepted.
Témoins d’un passé riche et mouvementé, les lieux de mémoire y sont plus nombreux qu’ailleurs.
I have tried "memorials" but that doesn't quite read correctly. Any help would be gratefully accepted.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
May 17, 2011 16:25: Stéphanie Soudais (X) changed "Term asked" from "\"lieux de mémoire\"" to "lieux de mémoire" , "Field" from "Other" to "Marketing"
Proposed translations
+2
2 hrs
Selected
heritage site
Cornwall Heritage Sites
Cornwall heritage sites Cornish historical attractions.
www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk
Map of English Heritage sites in Northumberland ...
www.visitnorthumberland.com/site/.../english-heritage-sites
On this website you can view the locations of built heritage sites from the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA)
maps.ehsni.gov.uk/MapViewer/Default.aspx
A major heritage site in India will join Mount Rushmore, St Kilda...
www.heraldscotland.com/.../unique-project-to-map-heritage-s...
Cornwall heritage sites Cornish historical attractions.
www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk
Map of English Heritage sites in Northumberland ...
www.visitnorthumberland.com/site/.../english-heritage-sites
On this website you can view the locations of built heritage sites from the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA)
maps.ehsni.gov.uk/MapViewer/Default.aspx
A major heritage site in India will join Mount Rushmore, St Kilda...
www.heraldscotland.com/.../unique-project-to-map-heritage-s...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Tony M
: A possibility, though unfortunately the FR do also talk a lot about 'patrimoine', tending thereby to differentiate the two.
10 mins
|
it seems to me that, in the context provided, the term is being used very loosely perhaps to cash-in on the "remembrance industry" which is steadily gearing up for 2014
|
|
agree |
Dieezah
: Right... I thing "patrimoine" would not quite fit here... Maybe elsewhere in the same brochure though...
17 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks for (all) the response(s) I eventually opted for "cultural heritage sites" as these are relatively small sites significant for what happened there as opposed to what had been constructed."
+5
6 mins
places of remembrance
I have used this in the past, but mainly for texts relating to places where something historical has happened and is commemorated in some way.
We often talk of gardens of remembrance, etc.
I don't know if that is the case for your text, the fact that it mentions "mouvementé" suggests this might be the case.
It is a possibility anyway.
We often talk of gardens of remembrance, etc.
I don't know if that is the case for your text, the fact that it mentions "mouvementé" suggests this might be the case.
It is a possibility anyway.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Tony M
: certainly a strong contender, depending on context
8 mins
|
thanks, Tony!
|
|
agree |
Jean Lachaud
26 mins
|
Thanks JL!
|
|
agree |
silvester55
: I have a strong feeling this is it http://www.rouentourisme.com/Default.aspx?select=91&level=3&...|_Mus%C3%A9es_et_monuments_-_Normandie
2 hrs
|
thanks silvester55
|
|
agree |
B D Finch
2 hrs
|
thanks, Barbara
|
|
neutral |
Troy D
: My favorite at first, it doesn't seem to fit the example sentence, especially given the discussion info. Places of remembrance seems to limit the meaning to officially marked sites, without regard to the collective memory of the inhabitants
2 hrs
|
I'm not so sure about it limiting the meaning to officially marked sites, and I still think it could work here, although an exact match with the French concept is probably an illusory quest.
|
|
agree |
codestrata
20 hrs
|
thanks, codestrata
|
+6
14 mins
locations of historical significance
Numerous locations are of historical signifcance, due to the town's (?) rich and often turbulent past.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Leslie Marcus
: We are on the same wavelength with the "historical" idea
1 min
|
agree |
Helen Shiner
: sites of historical or national significance perhaps
22 mins
|
agree |
cc in nyc
: I like "places of historical significance"
35 mins
|
agree |
Tony M
: I didn't initally like this idea, but in the light of Asker's extra context, I think perhaps this might work after all.
2 hrs
|
agree |
Verginia Ophof
2 hrs
|
agree |
Dieezah
15 hrs
|
14 mins
memorial grounds or historical grounds
Would this work? It is used for the Berlin Wall...
I thought of "places of pilgrimage" as well but I'm guessing you will veto that suggestion as it is too religious sounding...
I thought of "places of pilgrimage" as well but I'm guessing you will veto that suggestion as it is too religious sounding...
+1
5 mins
sites of memory
www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/201/articles/89NoraLieuxIntroRepresentations.pdf
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 mins (2011-05-17 16:34:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.port.ac.uk/research/africanoralhistory/memoire/
'Our interest in lieux de memoire where memory crystallizes and secretes itself has occurred at a particular historical moment, a turning point where consciousness of a break with the past is bound up with the sense that memory has been torn-but torn in such a way as to pose the problem of the embodiment of memory in certain sites where a sense of historical continuity persists. There are lieux de memoire, sites of memory, because there are no longer milieux de memoire, real environments of memory.'
(http://www.scribd.com/doc/39552983/Between-History-and-Memor...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2011-05-17 16:40:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
'Sites of Memory
Pierre Nora edited a monumental work of seven volumes about the loci memoriae of France, entitled "Les lieux de mémoire" (1984–92). What are such sites, or realms, of memory?
"A lieu de mémoire is any significant entity, whether material or non-material in nature, which by dint of human will or the work of time has become a symbolic element of the memorial heritage of any community (in this case, the French community)" (Nora 1996: XVII)
In other words, sites of memory are "where [cultural] memory crystallizes and secretes itself" (Nora 1989: 7). These include:
> places such as archives, museums, cathedrals, palaces, cemeteries, and memorials;
> concepts and practices such as commemorations, generations, mottos, and all rituals;
> objects such as inherited property, commemorative monuments, manuals, emblems, basic texts, and symbols.'
(https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/citd/holtorf/2.6.html)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 30 mins (2011-05-17 16:54:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
'The concept of sites of memory
It is normally said that you have to be fixed in space and in time if you want to belong somewhere. The sites of memory are, in the proper sense of the word, crucial. They are crossroads. They are the points where space and time meet memory. Piere Nora has tried to define a difference between milieu de mémoire and lieu de mémoire. The sites of memory are the "milieux", the real environments of memory, but today, with our lack of memory, we have to be content with lieux de mémoire, places which remind us of the past, of a (broken) memory. (cf. Morley, p. 87)'
(http://pov.imv.au.dk/Issue_08/section_2/artc5B.html)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 mins (2011-05-17 16:34:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.port.ac.uk/research/africanoralhistory/memoire/
'Our interest in lieux de memoire where memory crystallizes and secretes itself has occurred at a particular historical moment, a turning point where consciousness of a break with the past is bound up with the sense that memory has been torn-but torn in such a way as to pose the problem of the embodiment of memory in certain sites where a sense of historical continuity persists. There are lieux de memoire, sites of memory, because there are no longer milieux de memoire, real environments of memory.'
(http://www.scribd.com/doc/39552983/Between-History-and-Memor...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2011-05-17 16:40:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
'Sites of Memory
Pierre Nora edited a monumental work of seven volumes about the loci memoriae of France, entitled "Les lieux de mémoire" (1984–92). What are such sites, or realms, of memory?
"A lieu de mémoire is any significant entity, whether material or non-material in nature, which by dint of human will or the work of time has become a symbolic element of the memorial heritage of any community (in this case, the French community)" (Nora 1996: XVII)
In other words, sites of memory are "where [cultural] memory crystallizes and secretes itself" (Nora 1989: 7). These include:
> places such as archives, museums, cathedrals, palaces, cemeteries, and memorials;
> concepts and practices such as commemorations, generations, mottos, and all rituals;
> objects such as inherited property, commemorative monuments, manuals, emblems, basic texts, and symbols.'
(https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/citd/holtorf/2.6.html)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 30 mins (2011-05-17 16:54:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
'The concept of sites of memory
It is normally said that you have to be fixed in space and in time if you want to belong somewhere. The sites of memory are, in the proper sense of the word, crucial. They are crossroads. They are the points where space and time meet memory. Piere Nora has tried to define a difference between milieu de mémoire and lieu de mémoire. The sites of memory are the "milieux", the real environments of memory, but today, with our lack of memory, we have to be content with lieux de mémoire, places which remind us of the past, of a (broken) memory. (cf. Morley, p. 87)'
(http://pov.imv.au.dk/Issue_08/section_2/artc5B.html)
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Tony M
: Well, the weight of evidence is there, certainly — but it still sounds clumsy and like a too-literal translation to my ears!
8 mins
|
You are kind, Tony, and I am well aware of the weird-sounding phrase, but...
|
|
neutral |
silvester55
: translation may be awful , but see my notes
28 mins
|
Only the first excerpt, hopefully. It's also translated as realms of memory. Thanks, silvester. B. (Oh, and we posted the same Toronto ref. - see note two above.)
|
|
agree |
R.C. (X)
1 hr
|
Grazie, Raffaela! B.
|
29 mins
realms of memory
realms of memory npl.
lieux de mémoire
http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-french/realms of memor...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 33 mins (2011-05-17 16:58:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sites of Memory
Pierre Nora edited a monumental work of seven volumes about the loci memoriae of France, entitled "Les lieux de mémoire" (1984–92). What are such sites, or realms, of memory?
"A lieu de mémoire is any significant entity, whether material or non-material in nature, which by dint of human will or the work of time has become a symbolic element of the memorial heritage of any community (in this case, the French community)" (Nora 1996: XVII)
In other words, sites of memory are "where [cultural] memory crystallizes and secretes itself" (Nora 1989: 7). These include:
places such as archives, museums, cathedrals, palaces, cemeteries, and memorials;
concepts and practices such as commemorations, generations, mottos, and all rituals;
objects such as inherited property, commemorative monuments (see image right), manuals, emblems, basic texts, and symbols.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2011-05-17 17:01:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
looks like the same text , OUPS ,
I'll post another one , many hits on G
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 38 mins (2011-05-17 17:02:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The impact in France of Lieux de mémoire, the magisterial seven-volume collaborative project led by Pierre Nora, was consecrated in 1993 when the phrase "site of memory" entered the Grand dictionnaire Robert de la langue française. The publication of a three-volume English-language edition under the title Realms of Memory makes accessible to American readers 46 of the original 132 articles that were published in Lieux de mémoire between 1981 and 1992.1 They have been superbly translated by Arthur Goldhammer and come with a useful foreword by Lawrence Kritzman and a new preface by Nora.
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/106.3/ah00090...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 39 mins (2011-05-17 17:03:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Editorial Reviews
Review
<P>This is an indispensable guide to understanding France and the French. As usual, Arthur Goldhammer's translation is superb.</P> (Foreign Affairs )
<P>This unusual book deals fascinatingly with everything from the creation of the rousing anthem "La Marseillaise" to the changing role of Joan of Arc in France's collective memory. Even the Eiffel Tower shines forth in surprising new facets.</P> (Chicago Tribune )
http://www.amazon.com/Realms-Memory-Rethinking-Conflicts-Div...
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Tony M
: I think the term 'realms of memory' has been coined specifically to cover all those aspects referred to above that don't represent an actual physical 'site'; but 'realms' is a word that needs using with care in EN — a potential register problem here.
1 hr
|
it's ok , I already changed my mind , I don't like it either ! I agree on Gilla's suggestion , that's the perfect one ( google it )
|
+2
55 mins
historically evocative sites
Hopefully this suggestion helps keep the idea of memory at the forefront.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
AllegroTrans
2 hrs
|
Thank you!
|
|
agree |
Dieezah
: This is a faithful way of translating it.... Especially given the context...
14 hrs
|
Thanks, Dieezah!
|
+3
1 hr
memorial sites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangborn-Herndon_Memorial_Site
The Canadian National Vimy Memorial is a memorial site in France dedicated to the memory of Canadian Expeditionary Force members killed during the First World War. It also serves as the place of commemoration for First World War Canadian soldiers killed or presumed dead in France who have no known grave. The monument is the centrepiece of a 250-acre (100 ha) preserved battlefield park that encompasses a portion of the grounds over which the Canadian Corps made their assault during the Battle of Vimy Ridge, a military engagement fought as part of the Battle of Arras.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_National_Vimy_Memorial
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2011-05-17 17:51:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Buchenwald memorial site near Weimar
Buchenwald concentration camp on Ettersberg hill near Weimar, which operated as a labour camp between 1937 and 1945, was one of the largest in Germany. A total of 250,000 people from all over Europe were imprisoned at the camp during this period, over 50,000 of whom did not survive. After the camp was liberated in 1945, the site continued to be used as an internment camp by the occupying Soviet forces.
http://www.germany-tourism.co.uk/EGB/attractions_events/muse...
The Canadian National Vimy Memorial is a memorial site in France dedicated to the memory of Canadian Expeditionary Force members killed during the First World War. It also serves as the place of commemoration for First World War Canadian soldiers killed or presumed dead in France who have no known grave. The monument is the centrepiece of a 250-acre (100 ha) preserved battlefield park that encompasses a portion of the grounds over which the Canadian Corps made their assault during the Battle of Vimy Ridge, a military engagement fought as part of the Battle of Arras.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_National_Vimy_Memorial
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2011-05-17 17:51:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Buchenwald memorial site near Weimar
Buchenwald concentration camp on Ettersberg hill near Weimar, which operated as a labour camp between 1937 and 1945, was one of the largest in Germany. A total of 250,000 people from all over Europe were imprisoned at the camp during this period, over 50,000 of whom did not survive. After the camp was liberated in 1945, the site continued to be used as an internment camp by the occupying Soviet forces.
http://www.germany-tourism.co.uk/EGB/attractions_events/muse...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Tony M
: I think this is probably the best, all-encompassing term
6 mins
|
Thanks, Tony
|
|
agree |
SafeTex
: This is the one I'd use or as sm else said, 'memorial grounds' if it is a cemetery
13 mins
|
Thanks, SafeTex
|
|
agree |
Yolanda Broad
9 hrs
|
Discussion
the text seems to be about a former colonial territory (with a huge slavery-related History) just like my home place. In this light, "lieux de mémoire" is closely tied to the concept of "devoir de mémoire", sometimes as in places people people keep going to when they want to either celebrate their heritage, perform ceremonials....
and it can be different things ( see my wiki notes ).
Selon Pierre Nora, « un lieu de mémoire dans tous les sens du mot va de l'objet le plus matériel et concret, éventuellement géographiquement situé, à l'objet le plus abstrait et intellectuellement construit. »1 Il peut donc s'agir d'un monument, d'un personnage important, d'un musée, des archives, tout autant que d'un symbole, d'une devise, d'un événement ou d'une institution.
"Un objet devient lieu de mémoire quand il échappe à l'oubli, par exemple avec l'apposition de plaques commémoratives, et quand une collectivité le réinvestit de son affect et de ses émotions." 2
A perfect example of this is the massacred village of Oradour-sur-Glane not far from where I live. This is so much more than a mere 'site of historical interest' — as indeed is my own village, where Resistance fighter Violette Szabo was captured.