Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

en haut/en bas

English translation:

On the face of things / underneath the surface

Added to glossary by Rebecca Elliott
Mar 3, 2010 16:13
14 yrs ago
French term

en haut/en bas

French to English Other Tourism & Travel Military History
This is from a document relating to a village that played a major role in the First World War. This is the introduction to the village before the war. I'm not sure what is meant by "en haut" and "en bas". Is it something along the lines of "on the surface" and "underneath"?

En haut, le village est agricole et plutôt traditionnel. En bas, les habitants goûtent davantage au syndicalisme et à la libre pensée.

Thank you.
Change log

Mar 3, 2010 16:15: Stéphanie Soudais (X) changed "Term asked" from "En haut. En bas." to "en haut"

Mar 3, 2010 16:48: Stéphanie Soudais (X) changed "Term asked" from "en haut" to "en haut/en bas"

Discussion

Michael GREEN Mar 6, 2010:
Rebecca ... Just a thought : are you in a position to ask your customer what HE actually meant by the phrase?
I find that can be very useful, sometimes...
Mary Moritz Mar 6, 2010:
Watch film Also, I suggest that you take the time, Rebecca, to watch the news clip on the official site for the village if you haven't already. It's an analysis of the village's role during WWI and they actually say, "en bas du village" at one point, which indicates some sort of geographical distinction.
Mary Moritz Mar 6, 2010:
Used to be one village: Val et Mont As desertfow has pointed out:
http://www.tracy-le-mont.org/compagnie-darc/index.html

Un peu d'histoire

TRACY LE MONT et TRACY LE VAL.

Tracy le Val and Tracy le Mont were one village.

So, I still think that the villegeois would talk about the "haut" and "bas" as a geographical reference that in turn makes reference to the mindset of the inhabitants (conservative/liberal).


Le hasard des découpages des cantons, plusieurs fois redéfinis de 1790 à 1971, a séparé deux communes qui, au cours des siècles, avaient mené ensemble une existence paisible.
Carruthers (X) Mar 6, 2010:
sounds more like a town than a village.
Michael GREEN Mar 6, 2010:
Hummm.... As my wife (French native speaker) points out, the phrase is not very clear (which is why the question was posted!), and if the author wanted to say "on the surface/underneath", he might have put it better (au-dessus/en-dessous for example).
The author's statement about free-thinking and trade-unionism in an agricultural community is surprising, since the agricultural community is very conservative, and even in my village today, I can't say I've met many "libre-penseurs" or "syndicalistes". However, I think we have to assume the author had good reasons for saying it.
In favour of the "on the face of it/below the surface" interpretation, the early 20th century was a period of social change and the founding of trades unions.
At the same time, I can't see any reason for a geographical interpretation: unless the people on the high ground (if it exists) were more conservative than those lower down... so insofar as Bourth's "upper crust" probably lived on any high ground, I wouldn't dismiss his suggestion entirely.
Stephanie Ezrol Mar 5, 2010:
I think haut et bas allow the reader to hear both the physical high and low, as "from on high" and "at the base," as well as to hear an idea of high class and lower class as has been discussed. It also evokes an idea of base or profondity, as in, at the more profound level, they really are ... All of which is to say that to the extend you can in English echo that type of high low contrast, I think you will be closest to the author's intentions.
John Detre Mar 3, 2010:
I should have said I wouldn't dismiss Mary's, Sheila's and Stéphanie's suggestion...
Sorry Stéphanie, didn't notice your post when I was typing mine.
Rebecca Elliott (asker) Mar 3, 2010:
I think I'm going to sleep on this one, I'm so undecided! Thanks for all the input everyone :-)
swanda Mar 3, 2010:
agree with John To me, it relates to two different kind of people
John Detre Mar 3, 2010:
I wouldn't dismiss Mary's and Sheila's suggestion that they're talking about two parts of town, upper town and lower town. I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my mind around the idea that the villagers are farmers on the surface but unionists at heart. To me, the "davantage" in "en bas, les habitants goûtent davantage..." makes it sound like a contrast between two different groups of people.
Stéphanie Soudais (X) Mar 3, 2010:
I, for one, don't believe in the "surface/underneath" interpretation (because it isn't the common meaning of "en haut/en bas"). I think it means up/down (like ville haute/ville basse) or maybe it is a reference to upper/lower classes (as in "France d'en haut/France d'en bas")
MatthewLaSon Mar 3, 2010:
Comment I think your suggestion is fine, Rebecca. Have a great day.
Michael GREEN Mar 3, 2010:
That sounds rather like a réponse de Normand, Sheila ...
;o)
Sheila Wilson Mar 3, 2010:
Another possibility I used to live in a village built around a hill where we talked about the two areas as though they were totally different. I lived halfway up (or down), so I don't know, really
Rebecca Elliott (asker) Mar 3, 2010:
Thank you very much for the confirmation everyone!
Michael GREEN Mar 3, 2010:
I think that clinches it ... You have 4 "agrees" to your own suggestion, Rebecca ..
Chris Hall Mar 3, 2010:
Agree with Beverly... I second Beverly's motion.
Michael GREEN Mar 3, 2010:
No, but ... ... there is a "mont" somewhere!
However, I rather think, Rebecca, that you are on the right lines with "on the surface" and "underneath"
(typed while Beverly was posting her comment!)
BEVERLY OATES HREHOROW Mar 3, 2010:
Rebecca I think your own suggestion gets the meaning just about right
Rebecca Elliott (asker) Mar 3, 2010:
It's called Tracy-le-Mont. I don't think this has anything to do with a river.
Gad Kohenov Mar 3, 2010:
some geography and the name of the village can shade some light. Do they have a river there? etc.

Proposed translations

+7
5 hrs
Selected

On the face of things / underneath the surface

But your original thought is about the same, I think you are on exactly the right lines, it's just a question of how to express it.
Peer comment(s):

agree Olga Gladkova
1 hr
agree Chris Hall
3 hrs
agree PAUL DUMASS CHINNAPPAN : on the face of things / but in reality... to express it better in other words, (At a first glance, one would observe that the village is.... but a closer look would reveal that they ....
4 hrs
agree Ana Cristina Gutierrez Iglesias
11 hrs
agree Catherine Gilsenan : Agree with Paul
13 hrs
agree Stephanie Ezrol
1 day 21 hrs
agree Michael GREEN
2 days 11 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you"
2 mins
French term (edited): En haut. En bas.

upstream and downstream

"en haut ----en bas" veut dire ici "en aval et en amont"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 mins (2010-03-03 16:22:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or "uphill and downhill"
Peer comment(s):

disagree Rob Grayson : I see nothing suggesting this interpretation – in fact, it appears fairly meaningless in this context
2 mins
See Bouth's explanation
neutral Michael GREEN : I don't see how this can apply to a village - certainly not the one I live in, anyway.// Took you a while to react (10 days?), but be that as it may, and with all respect to Bourth, I still don't see what it has to do with a village, on a hill or not.
3 mins
See Bouth's explanation
neutral Chris Hall : Sorry, but this does not make a lot of sense to me.
5 mins
Sorry for you too; see Bouth's explanation
neutral writeaway : no basis for so much confidence. it makes no sense
8 mins
It makes sense however, see Bouth's explanation
disagree swisstell : expressions used in the oil industry, upstream being oil exploration and downstream being refining and distribution. Hardly applicable here
17 mins
You have your reply from Bourth
agree Bourth (X) : Agree on principle. I think it unlikely, but it COULD be this. Note that "upstream" and "downstream" are used in many fields, not just the oil industry, and can also be said "upriver" and "downriver".
1 hr
Am very grateful for your support and explanation, Bourth
agree Ana Cristina Gutierrez Iglesias
17 hrs
Thanks Cristina
Something went wrong...
+2
10 mins
French term (edited): en haut

Uphill and downhill

In my region, le haut means more altitude. If the village is hilly (and most of them are) you'll talk about the people who live "en haut" and "en bas".

In the Doubs, where I live, there is the "haut Doubs" which is the section over 900 meters or so and the "bas". It's well know that the people in the "haut" are not at all like the people in the "bas". The "bas" can be either Montbéliard and the Protestant region with Peugeot being the biggest influence or Besançon, Catholic, University, etc. Pontarlier is the "haut" It's a border city with Switzerland and very conservative.

So I think it's more about the hills and relief in the village that has created this difference.


Peer comment(s):

agree John Detre
40 mins
agree Evans (X) : I'm more inclined to this interpretation.
49 mins
neutral liz askew : up the hill, down the hill, i.e. at the top/bottom of the village. Contrast
1 hr
Something went wrong...
24 mins
French term (edited): en haut

in plain view .... but not so obvious


in plain view/on the surface the village is agricultural and traditional but not so obvious is that the villagers enjoy.....
Something went wrong...
1 hr

on top / below

I see your concern that it may describe a psychological state, which you may have gathered from the remaining text.

it might be useful to look for terms which might apply either way, physically as well as attitudinally/psychologically, and so a more basic approach might be helpful (my suggestion). Good luck on your translation
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

upper part / lower part (or the northern and the southern part)

I ´d say
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : upper / lower, perhaps — but there is no real justification for the northern / southern idea
13 hrs
agree Jacqui Audouy
18 hrs
Something went wrong...
18 hrs

on the one hand.../on the other...

that is the idea I get.
Something went wrong...
20 hrs

at the top of the village...at the bottom

My first thoughts basically agreeing with Ellen. In the village in the UK where I used to live we talked about people living at the top of the village (mainly council houses) and at the bottom (very middle-class)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2010-03-04 12:56:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

and yes, it was on a hill!
Something went wrong...
+2
1 hr

the upper crust / the plebs

Maybe "village" refers not to the actual, physical village but to the people that compose it. I think it's quite common to talk about le village meaning its people.

So maybe en haut / en bas refers to socio-economic position. While peasant farmers might not be uppercrust (though certainly traditional), the owners of the agricultural land would be: right-wing, catholics. Whereas the lower echelons of society, the factory workers, would be left-wing unionists and/or free-thinkers.

This socio-economic split could well be geographical as well, with farmers on the plateau land, landowners and the well-to-do on the sides of the valley where the air is clean and dry and they get some sun, and industry down in the valley, by the river, where, for historical reasons associated with water mills driving machinery, factories might be located.

However, my native-French-speaking partner sees it as "visibly" and "deep-down".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-03-03 17:49:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Tracy-le-Mont is just over 2km from Tracy-le-Val, so they are unlikely to be regarded as a "common entity". There appears to be no river running through Tracy-le-Mont.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days5 hrs (2010-03-05 22:08:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So "the people/villagers at the top" and "the people/villagers at the bottom" (without specifying "of what").

I was going to suggest "the Village People on top/underneath" but thought better of it ;-).
Peer comment(s):

agree Verginia Ophof
1 hr
agree Jacqui Audouy : Han't realised this contained ideas similar to my own, sorry
19 hrs
neutral Michael GREEN : Although an early 20thC village certainly had a class structure, this period saw the infancy of the trade union movement.... and my French partner agrees with yours (with reservations - see above)...
2 days 15 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 days

uphill/downhill

"le mont" meaning the hill, and "le val" meaning the valley, it seems obvious to me that it is a geographical distinction. The village being seperated into two parts, the one on the hill, "en haut", and the one at the river or valley level "en bas". No need for a big river to have "val" in a name, a stream would do.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

15 mins
Reference:

Tracy-Le-Mont and Tracy-Le-Val

Maybe it is two villages. One near a hill another in a valley?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 41 mins (2010-03-03 16:54:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Maybe two villages is exaggerated, but a rural uppper part and an lower less rual one is very plausible.
Note from asker:
Thanks, but I think the meaning is figurative rather than relating to any literal geographical features of the village. I read it as meaning that "on the surface" the village is conventional but "underneath" there is a trend towards trade unionism etc.
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree John Detre
35 mins
1000 mercis!
agree liz askew : The Ancient Village of Bonnieux, Provence: Historical, Fortified ... The 'old church' at the top of the village is accessed from the Rue ... in 1856 the decision to build a 'new church' at the bottom of the village was made. ... france-travel.suite101.com
1 hr
1000 mercis!
agree Jacqui Audouy
20 hrs
1000 mercis!
Something went wrong...
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