French term
je n'ai de permission à
Je remplis aussi un devoir en ma qualité de Français, en vous declarant que ne reconnoissant en Égypte d'autre autorité que celle du Pasha, je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre, encore moins au Consul d'angleterre qui n'a certainement point, d'ailleurs, les ridicules prétensions que vous lui supposez.
Si je parviens à me procurer des ouvriers plus experts que ceux qu'on m'a envoyés du Caire et auxquels je puisse confier cette entre prise delicate ne doutez nullement, Monsieur, que vouz n'aurez un jour la plaisir de voir dans La Musée de France quelques uns des beaux bas reliefs du tombeau d'Osirei, ce sera au reste le seul moyen de les sauver d'une destruction prochaine et en mettant ce projet en execution J'agirai en ami véritable de l'antiquité puisque j'enleverai ces monuments pour les conserver et non pas pour les vendre.
J'ai l'honneur etc.etc.
F.Champollion le jeune
à Thebes le 14 juin 1829
I'm struggling to decide whether this has a negative sense (and lacks the 'pas' in a similar vein to 'pouvoir') or if it's an expletive 'ne'...can anyone shed some light on this please?
TIA!
Proposed translations
I don't need [anybody else's] permission
The context being the French and English vying for influence over Egypt in the 19th century. Spoiler alert: the British win.
From the CNRTL:
Avoir à + inf. impliquant une idée, plus ou moins nette, d'obligation. Être contraint de.
From Le Petit Robert 2011:
AVOIR À (et l'inf.): être dans l'obligation de. > 1. devoir.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-09-05 14:59:52 GMT)
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A bit embarrassed to slam the wordsmithery of the great Champollion...maybe he was having a bad day.
It is also my duty as a Frenchman to inform you that, recognizing no authority in Egypt other than that of the pasha, I require the permission of none other, let alone of the British Consul-General [...]
It is also my duty as a Frenchman to inform you that, recognizing the authority in Egypt of none but the pasha, I need ask no one else for permission, let alone the British Consul-General [...]
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ph-b (X)
: "need s.o.'s permission" implies you have to ask s.o. for it, so no need to spell it out. Nice and concise.
12 mins
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Ta.
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agree |
Tony M
23 mins
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Ta.
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agree |
Samuël Buysschaert
1 hr
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Ta.
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agree |
Andrew Bramhall
1 hr
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Ta.
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agree |
James A. Walsh
2 hrs
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Ta.
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agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
2 hrs
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Ta.
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agree |
FPC
5 hrs
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Ta.
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agree |
Lara Barnett
7 hrs
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Ta.
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agree |
Nicole Acher
8 hrs
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Ta.
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agree |
Anastasia Kalantzi
9 hrs
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Ta.
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I don't have to ask for anyone else's permission
=>
as I recognise only the Pasha's authority (/ the Pasha as being the only person in charge), I can't see why anyone else's opinion would matter in any way ...
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Note added at 2 hrs (2022-09-05 14:00:01 GMT)
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ah yes, obvious point of method: you have to look at the whole of
"je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre"
a forceful way of saying:
"[as I recognise only the Pasha as the ruler of / as having authority over this territory I'm in (i.e. Egypt)] I couldn't care less about whatever anyone else has to say - that would be irrelevant / doesn't count for zilch."
agree |
Tony M
35 mins
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Thanks!
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agree |
Jennifer White
45 mins
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Thanks!
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agree |
Samuël Buysschaert
1 hr
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Merci!
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agree |
Andrew Bramhall
1 hr
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Thanks!
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agree |
Nicole Acher
8 hrs
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Thanks!
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neutral |
Barbara Cochran, MFA
: Doesn't sound very "forceful" to me. In fact, it sounds rather bland, like basic, literal translations often do./"Colorful", in either its pejorative or positive sense, is an inaccurate desc.of my trans. "Assertiveness", not "forcefulness", is at play.
20 hrs
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Of course, there are plenty of more "colourful" / "punchy" variants ... But, given that the ST is in fact quite polite, I stayed on the same register. / Do you have some a priori phobia of "literal" translations? (they are not always wrong)
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it's not as if I have to seek anyone's say-so
No, say-so is not colloquial, as exemplified by the web ref.
I believe this version avoids the 'dull-thud' trap of the same word order-
We are narrowing in on a way to understand a view we will call ethical realism. Ethical realism is the view that there are ethical truths and that they are made true by facts independent of anyone’s say so, will, or sentiment.
neutral |
Emmanuella
: Nous sommes au 19e siècle. Not as if ? Il s'agit d'une lettre officielle
43 mins
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: The text is direct and formal and from the C19th, with which in other matters, you seem to delight. However, this suggestion is too colloquial, too modern and far from the correct register
1 day 6 hrs
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neutral |
Zorra Renard
: Adrian has vever gotten over the collapse and decline of the Romanov, Hapsburg, and Hohenzollern dynasties!
14 days
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I'm under no obligation to wait on any individual's permission
Not very literal, but I think it reflects the assertive nature of the letter's verbiage.
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Note added at 21 hrs (2022-09-06 09:54:08 GMT)
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And here's an additional response to SafeTex's "neutral": https://happentoyourcareer.com/podcast-archive/how-waiting-o...
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Daryo
: If you don't include the "autre" bit the meaning gets pretty deformed: the ST doesn't say "no one" but "ONLY ONE" (i.e. the Pasha) has to be asked for permission //The ST is more important than the way the question has been formulated.
46 mins
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I chose to translate "autre" as "any individual's". If you were a credentialed literary translator like I am, you would certainly understand my interpretation a lot better, and my lack of interest in literalness, most of the time anyway.
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neutral |
SafeTex
: I coulnd't find anything by Googling that suggests that "wait on (someone's ) permission" is an English construction.
20 hrs
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The phrase was the first entry I found when I googled it just now: https://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/i-didnt-get-anywhere-in-my-...
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AllegroTrans
: Yes, it reflects the assertiveness, but strays too far from the ST. Also "I'm" is too colloquial
1 day 10 hrs
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Not at all, in the last two instances.
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I require no other permission
In modern English we would regard "don't need" as fairly forceful and direct but 19th century English differed in this regard
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Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:08:22 GMT)
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the first priest to be executed in Elizabeth I's reign
https://www.tudorsociety.com › blessed-thomas-woodh...
19 Jun 2017 — My lord, for this my poor advice I require no other thing of your Lordship but that ye will not molest by any means this bearer, ...
'Die Nibelungensage' ('The Nibelung Saga'), retold by Alfred ...
https://tonysreadinglist.wordpress.com › 2018/11/26
26 Nov 2018 — That is my wage, I require no other thanks. *** (my translation). The thing is, Brunhilde and Siegfried have a history (even if he can't ...
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Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:09:53 GMT)
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Scripture & Creed - Lecture 3 - Newman Reader
https://www.newmanreader.org › works › arguments › l...
I require no other. For our own Church it is enough, as the Homilies show. It is enough that Scripture has been overruled to contain the whole Christian ...
Sir Watkin and the Italian Castrato
https://blog.library.wales › sir-watkin-and-the-italian-ca...
18 Aug 2014 — ... that in performing the part of Orpheus, I require no other bribe, or reward, than the pleasure of shewing you a ready obedience.
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Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:11:15 GMT)
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Gerileon of England. The second part of his most excellent ...
https://quod.lib.umich.edu › eebo
But I repute the déed to bee of so slender valew, in regard of your deserts, as for all my labour bestowed, I require no other thing of yee: but that ye ...
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Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:21:45 GMT)
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My Kingdom For A Wolf - Chapter 9 - Lithgaeril
https://archiveofourown.org › works › chapters
2 May 2022 — I require no other permission.” Aulë watched him with shrewd eyes for a few moments longer before his glare broke into a grudging smile, ...
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Daryo
9 hrs
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thanks
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agree |
Lucy Teasdale
1 day 9 hrs
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thanks
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agree |
Emmanuella
1 day 11 hrs
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thanks
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Discussion
That settles it and answers Verity's question.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WG0JalrIgmUC&printsec=fr...
https://www.cairn.info/revue-langue-francaise-2004-3-page-19...
Correction on my point below, they were certainly already using double negation with "point", since he uses it in the following sentence. But I think single negation with "ne" was still sufficient. Single negation by omitting "pas"/"point" no longer being in use are modern developments, I think.
I think all of the translations are accurate in sense, so the question is which accurately conveys the register. I don't know enough about 19th century register to weigh in. Was "don't" in common usage then? Would possessive "'s" have been used in a formal letter? Or would they have said something more like "I need not request permission from anyone, least of all the Consul..."
I don't know the answer (I'm a legal translator, and definitely not an expert in historical register), just raising the questions.
Regarding "ne" being sufficient to negate, it absolutely is. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, "pas" is a relatively modern addition to French. Latin and the Romance languages, and English for that matter, negate with the ne/no/not/etc words, and French added "pas" thereafer. It may even have been seen as colloquial in Champollion's time, hence its absence here. Again, just a thought as I can't be certain without research.
I think here the construction is almost a deformation of 'ne...personne...'
What he is saying is "I recognise only the Pasha as the ruler of / as having authority over this territory I'm in (i.e. Egypt)", so I couldn't care less about whatever anyone else has to say - that would be irrelevant / doesn't count for zilch.
You might phrase it as something like "I require the permission of none other" or "I need ask for permission from none other" if you want to translate into 19C English.
In other words, "You aren't the boss of me, the English aren't the boss of me, I answer only to the Pasha!"
P.S. évidemment si ce n'est au Pacha
« je n'ai besoin de demander la permission de personne »
et variations sur un même thème.
PS Agree with Wolf: I answered your question about ne, but the whole sentence says that "Champo" recognizes none other than...