Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
réponse de jésuite
English translation:
Jesuitical response
French term
réponse de jésuite
I'm not sure what this idiom means. I can't decide whether it is something along the lines of "dodge the issue" or "give a roundabout answer". Maybe "without trying to be smart"
The only definitions I have found online seem to indicate that it implies insincerity or hypocrisy, but that doesn't seem to be the case here
La casuistique |
Daryo
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May 20, 2020 23:45: Daryo changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"
PRO (3): philgoddard, Beatriz Ramírez de Haro, Daryo
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Proposed translations
Jesuitical response
Unclear in other words
https://www.lexico.com/definition/jesuitical
"Dissembling or equivocating, in the manner once associated with Jesuits."
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2020-05-21 11:52:27 GMT) Post-grading
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Stephen, glad to have helped and totally agree with you that the text should not be "dumbed down" or that the term should be ignored or paraphrased. The adjective "Jesuitical" is still used in English whatever some people seem to think though it seems it may be higher register than in French. But I believe modern usage of the adjective means highly intellectualised, as the Jesuits are the most highly educated in the Catholic priesthood and are sometimes feared by the less intelligent as they can talk rings around them. Just as some politicians do in fact.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/17/tubular
Giuliani, it turned out, needed less help than Romney, who had a more jesuitical response, which didn’t precisely answer the very precise question.
agree |
AllegroTrans
: That's the translation but it may not be readily understood in some countries
19 mins
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well the same could be said of the French! Is that going to be understood by all French speakers? I expect it's intended for an educated audience. The definition gives other alternatives anyway. But "unclear" in plain English, a typical political response
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neutral |
Daryo
: correct, only problem being that only a minority in English speaking countries will have any clue as to what it could mean.
52 mins
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well the same could be said of the French! Is that going to be understood by all French speakers? I expect it's intended for an educated audience. The definition gives other alternatives anyway. But "unclear" in plain English, a typical political response
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agree |
philgoddard
: You've provided the correct translation and explanation. The choice of term is slightly pretentious, and Stephen will have to decide whether to substitute something else in his translation.
1 hr
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Many thanks:-)
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disagree |
Libby Cohen
: I think we need to be bold enough not to translate this literally, when it is so rooted in French Jesuit 17th century usage, and not a popular English phrase today. I would prefer making it intelligible to the 21st century educated audience.
3 hrs
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What is your linguistic reason for disagreeing when this is a correct translation for the term asked? Who said anything about it being "popular" (other than ph-b) "I would prefer making it intelligible to..." is good writing???
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agree |
ph-b (X)
: not with this answer (to me, wrong register + cult. ref. might be too cryptic for more Engl. speakers than Fr. ones), but agree with your "ambiguous" in the discussion box.
3 hrs
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Thank you . Yes ambiguous or even non-commital would also work. I really don't get the disagrees at all
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neutral |
SafeTex
: we would need a very good reason to refuse a literal translation when the expression exists in both languages and yet, bearing in mind that most English people don't use or even recognize this expression, incl. me, I would reject it.
4 hrs
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just because you don't know something is not a linguistic reason for disagreeing when this is a correct translation. Thanks for changing to neutral. BTW This was non Pro for me as I knew it immediately w/o needing to look anything up
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agree |
writeaway
: I agree there are other ways to translate this but I don't agree with the disagrees. It's certainly not wrong.
4 hrs
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Many thanks:-) No, it's not wrong and anyway I offered other ways of dealing with it.
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neutral |
Michael Delrieu
: 'jesuitical response' yields no results in ngram viewer, so particulary obscure. Oxford dict does, but with a meaning of 'dissemble': conceal or disguise one's true feelings or beliefs, which is not the same thing as the french.
4 hrs
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Just look up the word jesuitical and you'll get more result. It has exactly the same meaning as the French in English
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disagree |
James A. Walsh
: This would be meaningless to me without looking it up, which quite defeats the purpose!
11 hrs
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What is your linguistic reason for disagreeing when this is a correct translation for the term asked? It's not wrong and I offered alternative ways of dealing with it.
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agree |
Francois Boye
: They say 'réponse de jésuite' in French
15 hrs
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Thanks:-) And yes, they did
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neutral |
ormiston
: I doubt the adjective Jésuitique would be readily understood even in France. A typical Jesuit reply would be to cleverly answer a question with a question for example. So your non commital works better. The French is not pretentious language.
20 hrs
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contradictory no? "I doubt the adjective Jésuitique would be readily understood even in France[...] The French is not pretentious language" But agree "typical Jesuit reply would be to cleverly answer a question with a question"
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a prevaricating response
(memories of Richardson's "Pamela", described repeatedly by Mr B as a "prevaricator"...)
neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: not so sure. Not an exact synonym as this includes notions of delay and deliberate lying
41 mins
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Thanks for your comment, Yvonne. I would have said that casuistry (one of the most frequent terms associated with "Jesuitical") includes at least the "deliberate lying". But, sincerely, no matter!
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agree |
Libby Cohen
: No need to translate this term literally. The Jesuitical method, or high casuistry, is about prevaricating or equivocating.
2 hrs
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Thank you Libby :-)
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agree |
ph-b (X)
: not with this answer (to me, wrong register + cult. ref. might be too cryptic for more Engl. speakers than Fr. ones), but agree with your "evade the issue" in the discussion box.
3 hrs
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Understand your viewpoint. It is actually difficult to 'guess' how comprehensible cultural references are. Thanks ph-b :-)
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agree |
SafeTex
: right register and an expression that more people are likely to understand than "Jesuitical response"
19 hrs
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Thanks SafeTex :-)
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without equivocation
Without equivocation, I.....
Yvonne's answer is perfectly correct, but I offer this alternative. Reference to the Jesuits may be understood in countries with a moderate to large Catholic population, but if the translation is for international consumption it may be better to use something more comprehensible.
?
neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: you're translating "Sans vouloir donner une **réponse de jésuite", not the term asked itself
15 mins
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Yes you're right: Maybe 'without wishing to equivocate' I....': My intention was a suggested rephrasing to make this sound natural
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disagree |
Katarina Peters
: the meaning is just the opposite
3 hrs
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go off the subject
I'm not sure réponse de jésuite is itself a fixed idiom, the problem seems to lie instead with jésuite and the pejorative senses it can have. Uppermost are hypocrisy and deliberate ambiguity, but as suggested in the discussion box, the speaker/writer may have other connotations in mind.
Seeing as the speaker says "I don't mean to [...] but I will anyway", I think what they mean here is straying off topic, going off on a tangent, going into the weeds, getting sidetracked and so on. Nothing misleading or evasive, just being longwinded and not getting to the point.
For a lesson in the dark arts of Jesuit circumlocution, look no further than the masterful Sir Humphrey. Poor old Hacker! :D
I don't mean to go off the subject, but I must digress for a moment and sketch out the profile of these investors.
Not to go off on a tangent, but a short digression is in order to explain these investors' profile.
disagree |
Daryo
: that's off-off the idea / meaning of "une réponse de jésuite" // Sir Humphrey as master practitioner of jesuistic rhetoric? Not convinced. More a master at protecting own tribal interests - as in "house-training ministers ..."
10 hrs
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In this context the writer means longwinded (or, as in your answer, complicated), not casuistic, deceptive or evasive. And Sir Humphrey is the epitome of deceptive and evasive!
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disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: You can't just ignore a term and skip over it. It does not mean "go off the subject" at all.This relates only to the digression that follows and the nuances/meaning of the ST is changed
19 hrs
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You have to consider the expression in context, where it clearly does not mean anything along the lines of Jesuitical.
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equivocating response
neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: well yes, I had this as an alternative at 7 mins but apparently register is not so high in French
18 hrs
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Disingenuous
English key words subtly dishonest and insincere lead to Collins entry for Disingenuous
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/academie9/j%C3%A9suite
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/disingenuous
agree |
Yolanda Broad
2 hrs
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neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: no, it doesn't necessarily mean dishonest or insincere
2 hrs
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without being deliberately obtuse
Jesuit's reponse is something I have never heard an English speaker use whereas the French is in everyday use
neutral |
ph-b (X)
: I thought "obtuse" meant " stupid and slow to understand, or unwilling to try to understand" (Camb.)? If so, I don't think that's what is meant here./Oh dear! :-)
12 hrs
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true - I now think I've always misused the phrase !
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disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: "Obtuse" is completely wrong. "Jesuitical" means the opposite: a highly-intellectualised response. I've come across it quite a lot, in both languages, especially in literature, academic critical works and politics. //Asker said they don't
14 hrs
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sure but they obfuscate deliberately which is the whole point here
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neutral |
Daryo
: if you look at the ST - which is definitely more relevant here (always, in fact) than any dictionary or glossary or third-hand comments, you'll see for yourself which nuance of meaning is intended IN THIS ST
19 hrs
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But before I even endeavour to answer that question
I’ve read the whole article having found it online, and if I was translating it I would paraphrase this part of the sentence to achieve greater clarity in the English.
https://www.businessimmo.com/contents/104458/le-palace-retou...
None of the literal translations work for me, and the "dodge the issue", “ambiguous”, “evasive” or similar renderings don’t really cut it for me either in terms of producing a clearly comprehensible translation.
This would be my take on it:
“A chaque ouverture d’un nouvel établissement hôtelier prestigieux je suis interrogé sur le rendement réalisé par les investisseurs dans l’hôtellerie recherchant la distinction Palace à Paris. Sans vouloir donner une réponse de jésuite, je me dois de procéder à un détour préliminaire afin d’expliquer le profil de ces investisseurs […]”
“Each and every time a prestigious new “Palace“ hotel opens up in Paris, I am asked about the returns investors can expect from hotels with this coveted status in the city. But before I even endeavour to answer that question, I discuss the investor’s profile with the investor, […]”
_________________
Best of luck!
https://www.businessimmo.com/contents/104458/le-palace-retour-sur-investissement-ou-retour-sur-ego
agree |
Wolf Draeger
: Or sidestep it altogether with "But first" or "Before we get to that"? As in "But first, we need more context"...!
1 hr
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disagree |
Daryo
: that misses ENTIRELY the point / underlying meaning of what's "une réponse de jésuite" - could as well not be at all in the ST, as far as this translation is concerned. Unfortunately, the term is a key term in that sentence, you can't just ignore it.
2 hrs
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disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: You can't just ignore a term and skip over it. This paraphrase does not have the same meaning as the ST
11 hrs
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While I wouldn't want to give an overtly complicated answer
=
While I wouldn't want to give an overtly complicated answer, I do need to start with a digression ...
In this texte:
Les Châteaux des temps modernes
A chaque ouverture d’un nouvel établissement hôtelier prestigieux je suis interrogé sur le rendement réalisé par les investisseurs dans l’hôtellerie recherchant la distinction Palace à Paris. Sans vouloir donner une réponse de jésuite, je me dois de procéder à un détour préliminaire afin d’expliquer le profil de ces investisseurs (fortunes privées majoritairement d’Asie et du Moyen Orient) et présenter leurs motivations (diversification patrimoniale, création de valeur à long terme, prestige). Ainsi, la question du retour sur investissement immédiat d’un hôtel Palace se trouve ne pas être « la bonne question ». En effet, pour une majorité des propriétaires, ces Châteaux des temps modernes sont la preuve visible et indiscutable de leur succès (retour sur EGO assuré !). Pour certains, il s’agit aussi d’une stratégie de préservation du capital à un horizon lointain dépassant 25 ans (durée moyenne de détention des actifs historiques). Enfin, certains investisseurs ont su combiner préservation de leur patrimoine et création de valeur (Prince Al Waleed Bin Talal), tandis que d’autres ont trouvé dans les Palaces une vitrine complémentaire pour leurs activités dans le secteur du luxe (LVMH). Ainsi, la question du retour sur investissement se doit de tenir compte de la diversité des motivations et des flux de richesse directs et indirects générés par un investissement Palace.
https://www.businessimmo.com/contents/104458/le-palace-retou...
In this text "une réponse de jésuite" is about giving complicated answers, not about evading questions or attempts at obfuscation - can't see any kind of negative connotations implied.
The author could have as well said;
"sans vouloir me lancer dans un exercice de casuistique"
(before getting into one ...)
neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: yes, we broadly agree on the general meaning of the term asked and the fact that there are no negative connotations implied here but this doesn't do it for me
8 hrs
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OK.
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agree |
Wolf Draeger
: Or "Not to complicate/Without complicating things". This is a good answer, but it contradicts your ref entry and disagrees. Be consistent.
11 hrs
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I'm consistent "réponse de jésuite" has many factual aspects and interpretations and conditioned emotional reactions attached to it - "overtly complicated" is just the one that is relevant here in some other ST it could be about some other aspect.
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Jesuit answer
I think the word Jesuit better implies intrigue and mystery, leaving the question potentially unanswered.
The word in French is a noun; therefore, the word in English needs to be a noun: Jesuit. Using the word Jesuit does not dumb down the phrase, I believe it makes it more accurate.
Reference comments
La casuistique
(de casuiste)
Partie de la théologie qui traite des cas de conscience. (Née véritablement au xiie s., la casuistique catholique connut son âge d'or entre le xvie et le xviiie s., surtout dans la Compagnie de Jésus. Les casuistes furent combattus par les jansénistes, qui les accusaient de favoriser une morale relâchée.)
.
https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/casuistique/1...
Qu'est ce qu'une "réponse de jésuite" ?
Les jésuites sont très connus en France pour leur querelle avec les jansénistes, autour de la casuistique (la partie de la théologie morale qui s'intéresse aux cas de conscience) au XVIIe siècle. Une partie des membres de la Compagnie de Jésus soutenait un enseignement moral, basé sur l'expérience de cas particuliers (d'où le terme casuistique) accordant une place importante à la liberté individuelle face à la loi morale. Une posture dénoncée par les jansénistes (comme Blaise Pascal), qui la qualifient de "laxisme".
Depuis cette controverse intellectuelle, le mot jésuite a pris une connotation péjorative, synonyme d'hypocrite. Les membres de la compagnie de Jésus étaient brocardés pour leur capacité à donner des réponses retorses pour étayer leurs argumentations.
https://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2013/03/14/qui-sont-le...
You could argue that members of the Roman catholic order of "la Compagnie de Jésus" got bad press from those who couldn't (or don't want to) comprehend anything more that a simplistic yes or no.
[A bit like Machiavelli who keeps getting bed press from people who never read a line of his writing ...]
I see the meaning of "réponse de jésuite" as a nuanced / complex argumentation that can not be reduced to a simple yes/no valid for all and any situations. Not to everyone's taste, thus the negative connotation ...
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Note added at 1 day 8 hrs (2020-05-21 19:36:34 GMT) Post-grading
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... who keeps getting bad press from ...
agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: I agree with your last line in particular. People, who can't follow intellectual reasoning put a negative spin on anything to do with Jesuits but the word isn't necessarily negative https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/jesuitica...
9 hrs
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Thanks!
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Discussion
Maybe pne should have started here
But that's l'esprit d'escalier for you.
Asker has made his choice but it sounds REALLY funny in English and not immediately understandable to English-speaking readers - strange choice
I disagreed with you and you asked me "so just because you don't know it you disagree???"
The answer is NO.
I disagreed with it because hardly ANYONE knows it.
It's really not personal and most of us get a bit hot under the collar at times (me included) but another person disagreed for similar reasons and all the neutrals bring up this point too.
if we had some historical term that had no present day counterpart, we would have to live with the historical term but it's not the case here so the disagrees/neutrals are valid viewpoints.
Regards
21 May. I changed the disagree to a neutral as Writeaway made me realize that a disagree is very harsh in this case.
Isn't this really "botter en touché" or "noyer le poisson" ou "langue de bois" more or less.
Looking up these expressions, I see things like "prevaricate" (already suggested), "waffle", dodge the question (suggested in discussion) etc;
is this perhaps a way to proceed to find a suitable translation for the question?
yes, we need a good reason to reject a literal translation for an expression that exists in both languages but I think we have one. The expression in English is not widely used, is archaic and most people (including me), have no idea at all as to what it means (hence my disagree)
Just my opinion on this.
PS why is the question "non-pro"?
or indeed "enigmatic"
"cryptic" to keep the Jesuitical idea
I don't know if the author of the source text is using the expression correctly, but I suspect not as is so often the case. Basically he says that the wrong question is being asked and then explains why, before answering the question anyway a few lines further down. This is why I had thought of "dodging the issue" or something along those lines.
@ph-b's comment just appeared as I was typing this, and I was just going to ask precisely whether anybody had any suggestions about how pretentious the expression sounds in French compared to the direct equivalent in English. So thanks!