This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
us
flirtent

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

si ce n’est qu’il estimait que...

English translation:

if only inasmuch as he considered (that)...

Added to glossary by Tony M
Jan 7, 2013 19:21
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

Si ce n’est qu’il estimait que...

Non-PRO French to English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters in an economics text
Hi everyone,

I am unsure how to translate the "Si ce n’est qu’il estimait que" of this sentence. It is from an Ecomomics book that I am translating but the language is quite literary. Has anyone got any ideas? It is for an American audience with some background in Economics I would imagine.

Original text:

"Si ce n’est qu’il estimait que l’argent est à la source de l’inflation et des dépressions car il se laisse manipuler par l’État qui s’en est arrogé le monopole, et qui l’imprime en trop grosses quantités."

My attempt:

"It was not just that he believed that money is the source of inflation and dépressions given that it allows us to be manipulated by the State who has the monopoly and who prints too much of it."

What do you think? Anyone else got any suggestions?

Cheers,

Eoghan
Proposed translations (English)
5 If only inasmuch as he considered (that)...
3 +4 Were it not for the fact that he considered...
4 +2 except that
3 +1 although/But he believed that
3 Other than the (mere) fact that he considered....as....
4 -3 It it is believed that
Change log

Jan 8, 2013 01:11: writeaway changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Other" , "Field (specific)" from "Economics" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters" , "Field (write-in)" from "(none)" to "in an economics text"

Jan 15, 2013 21:21: Tony M Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (2): cc in nyc, Yolanda Broad

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:

An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)

A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).

Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.

When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.

* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.

Discussion

cc in nyc Jan 8, 2013:
@ Wolf Re: "To me, the writer doesn't want to highlight where F/K diverge, but rather where they converge."

Except that it goes against the dictionary definition "si ce n'est que."

Now, if you were to substitute Tony's answer for "except that" in my last sentence, it wouldn't work very well... and imo the same is true in the ST. ;-)
Wolf Draeger Jan 8, 2013:
Writer subtle argument As I read it, the writer is not so much contrasting Friedman and Keynes' views on money as he is trying to give the impression that Friedman conceded some important point to Keynes (and Marx) on the importance of money.

Money is of course crucial to an economy, I can't think of any economist who would dispute that; the point they all disagree on is what role it should play. So imo the author is making a somewhat empty point, which seems to be part of a subtle argument in favour of Keynesian/Marxist economics, as in "even the great (and ideologically opposed) M. Friedman agrees with Keynes/Marx that money is crucial to the economy, although he disagrees with them fundamentally on its proper place and use, but never mind that, the main thing is that he agreed with K/M, which validates their ideas...".

So I think the translation needs to retain that subtlety, which is why Tony's seems best to me. To me, the writer doesn't want to highlight where F/K diverge, but rather where they converge.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into a tiny extract, but that's the impression I get from the writer's use of language :-)
cc in nyc Jan 8, 2013:
Keynes and Friedman Perhaps this helps to explain the point of disagreement:
"Keynes's influence waned in the 1970s, partly as a result of problems that began to afflict the Anglo-American economies from the start of the decade, and partly because of critiques from Milton Friedman and other economists who were pessimistic about the ability of governments to regulate the business cycle with fiscal policy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes
cc in nyc Jan 8, 2013:
Found a similar KudoZ entry... ...for a phrase that starts "tout a été dit si ce n'est que..."
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/general_conversa...
It might look familiar to some folks. ;-)
cc in nyc Jan 7, 2013:
A couple more points For "il se laisse manipuler par l’État," I take the subject to be "l'argent," to yield "money allows itself to be manipulated by the State..." or perhaps "money is manipulated by the government."
And I would be hard put to avoid "arrogate" for "arroger" in this context. ;-)
Eoghan McMonagle (asker) Jan 7, 2013:
This is the text including the few sentences before and the one that comes after. Perhaps this provides more context.

"Keynes n’évoquait-il pas la « théorie monétaire de la production » ?Même Milton Friedman (1912-2006), chantre de l’école monétariste et ardent défenseur de l’ultralibéralisme, prix Nobel d’économie en 1976, rejoignait Marx et Keynes dans son appréciation du rôle crucial de l’argent. Si ce n’est qu’il estimait que l’argent est à la source de l’inflation et des dépressions car il se laisse manipuler par l’État qui s’en est arrogé le monopole, et qui l’imprime en trop grosses quantités. Selon Friedman, l’action de l’État – grand imprimeur de billets – remet en cause l’efficience d’entreprises et de marchés supposés s’autoréguler."
Tony M Jan 7, 2013:
A couple of points... It would help a bit if we knew who this 'il' is? Or is it being used impersonally here? As it stands, the sentence doesn't seem to be complete, so it might help to know what precedes it, and gives rise to the 'si'

I think there are other issues with your proposed translation:

"It was not just that he believed that money is the source of inflation and dépressions given that it allows us to be manipulated by the State who has the monopoly and who prints too much of it."

To start with, I don't think 'si ce n'est que...' really means "It was not just that..." — to me, it has some sort of sense of 'even if only inasmuch as...'; but it's hard to tell without knowing what comes before.

Then note that 'il se laisse manipuler' is not 'us', since the 'il' and the reflexive 'se' refer back to money itself.

And I'd say that simply 'has' is far too weak to translate 's'en est arrogé', which surely has the sense of 'has helped itself to...'?

Those three points really rather put a whole new complexion on the overall tenor of the phrase, I believe.

Proposed translations

49 mins
Selected

If only inasmuch as he considered (that)...

Ah, that's better! Now we can see how it all fits together.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-01-07 20:32:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

One could probably be less clumsy by saying 'If only in that...'

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 days (2013-01-15 21:19:12 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

I quite agree, of course, that this usage of « si ce n'est que... » certainly deviates from the normal dictionary definitions of this pretty clear-cut expression. We will probably never know exactly what might have been going through the writer's mind at this point...
Peer comment(s):
agree Daryo
5 mins
Merci, Daryo !
agree Wolf Draeger : If only (in his belief that the manipulation of money caused inflation and depressions...)
1 hr
Thanks, Wolf! Well put, and glad you see it the same way I do ;-)
neutral JH Trads : this is probably not the intended meaning, as "si ce n'est que" marks an opposition/differentiation/exception in relation to another (often preceding) sentence or assertion
3 hrs
Thanks, Hugo! I quite agree, except that I can't for the life of me see where there is any opposition in the statements being made??
disagree cc in nyc : I think the meaning is the other way around, closer to "apart from the fact" than "inasmuch as" or "if only in that"; http://www.larousse.com/en/dictionnaires/francais-anglais/si... and then scroll down // My guess is the key is in the ST ;-)
7 hrs
Thanks, CC! For the actual term, I'd agree, except that, as I remarked to Hugo above, I can't for the life of me see how there is actually any opposition between the statements being made.
disagree Salih YILDIRIM : Irrelevant. It might be" Other than ...
7 hrs
Thank you! I'm not quite sure how this could be said to be 'irrelevant' in EN, but you are entitled to disagree, of course.
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Tony for this."
+2
45 mins
French term (edited): si ce n’est que

except that

IMO, to yield "Except that he considered..." for "Si ce n’est qu’il estimait que..."

si ce n'est que conj.
except that
http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/si ce n'es...


• Si ce n’est que, Sauf que.
http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/si

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-01-07 20:22:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's a better link to the Reverso-Collins definition: http://preview.tinyurl.com/aqxxewy

Plus one more reference:
si ce n'est que, locution
Sens Sauf que.
http://www.linternaute.com/dictionnaire/fr/definition/si-ce-...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-01-07 20:32:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think that the author's point is that Friedman agreed with Marx and Keynes regarding the crucial role of money. But, in addition, he adds, Friedman felt this was the case in great part to government control over the money supply (printing money), thereby calling into question market efficiency...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-01-07 20:39:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Perhaps this helps: For "il se laisse manipuler par l’État," I read "money allows itself to be manipulated by the State..."

So for Friedman, it's not just money that is important (as for Keynes), but also – according to this author – the State.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I take the point of your dictionary definitions, but I can't see how that fits the logic of what is being said here? Surely 'except that...' implies some kind of contradiction, which I'm not reading here?
22 mins
See note(s) just added ;-)
agree HughDESS : Personnally, I do read a contradiction in 'Si ce n'est que'
43 mins
Thank you. (And so do the three dictionaries.)
agree JH Trads : this is indeed most likely the intended meaning
3 hrs
Thank you.
Something went wrong...
+1
2 hrs

although/But he believed that

At the risk of cluttering the list of answers - I think Tony's suggestion is quite satisfactory...as I see it, the writer is comparing Keynes'/Marx's and Friedman's views of money by saying that the similarities end with their mutual recognition of its importance, but not of its role or rightful place in the economy. So there is a contrast, but it's more along the lines of "Bob and Mark both believe the earth revolves around the sun, although Bob believes it is round (whereas Mark insists it is flat)".

Crudely put, Keynes believed that money was there to be spent (stimulate demand & consumption), whereas Friedman held that the supply of money should be regulated to suit an expanding or contracting economy (manage inflation).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-01-07 22:11:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

My answer perhaps (over) simplifies the distinction the writer is making, whereas Tony's retains the tone and style of the author and the (potential) subtlety of the point being made. It's hard to tell from the limited extract, but my guess is that the author is more sympathetic to Keynesian economics than monetarist theory.
Example sentence:

Even Friedman...agreed with Marx and Keynes that money played a crucial role, although he believed that money lay at the heart of inflation and depressions when manipulated by a State that has assumed monopoly rights and prints money in excess quantities.

Even Friedman...agreed with Marx and Keynes that money played a crucial role. But he believed that the State's manipulation and excess printing of money, as a result of its monopoly on monetary policy, lay behind inflation and depressions.

Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Well explained, you have helped me understand better what was initially just a feeling.
9 hrs
Thanks Tony.
Something went wrong...
+4
55 mins

Were it not for the fact that he considered...

One possible rendering among many.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 56 mins (2013-01-07 20:17:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Notwithstanding..." is another one.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-01-07 22:06:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It would be helpful to have the sentence before the one given.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-01-07 22:07:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, just seen the discu posts.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-01-07 23:33:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I know read this slightly differently, in light of the further context from the discu posts. Context is always so necessary!

Whilst the "except for, except that" is quite correct from a dictionary reading, and this general direction works, maybe a twist-to-fit needs to be done. The sentence starting “Si ce n’est que…” is introduced, deliberately, I believe, in the style of an afterthought, but no doubt in fact for emphasis. I read it to mean :

- in so far as
- to the extent that

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-01-07 23:36:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

My recent suggestions end up moving away from the idea of contradiction and act rather to qualify what has gone before. This is odd. It makes for a more comfortable read, but is quite some distance from the general meaning of the expression.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-01-07 23:46:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I am now happy that I have the gist of this one. Here goes. This might satisfy me, but it might not satisfy you guys!

MF shares M and K’s view that money is crucial. That is as far as the parallel goes. MF stands apart as ultraliberal, if only to the extent that he considers money as the source of inflation and depressions as it is manipulated by the State etc… In other words yes, all consider that money is of critical importance. One example of where their points of view diverge is that MF considers money to be the root of inflation, depressions as State intervention mucks it all up.

The "Si ce n'est que..;" introduces an example which sets MF apart. The previous sentence mentions one point he has in common with M and K, but there similarity starts and ends.
Peer comment(s):
agree Andrew Mason : I think this is the better rendering, give the context
4 mins
neutral Tony M : But there is no element of contradicting in the s/t, as your suggestion would surely imply? / Great, I think your later comments a getting closer to the way I initially read it, with a bit of 'twist to fit' needed.
12 mins
The more I think about this one, the less sure I am about how far contradiction is intended. It can be read as a bit of fine-tuning, rather than a contradiction. BTW, when you say "here" dfo you mean the original or "here" my suggestions. Ditto "this".
agree HughDESS : Same as before, sorry Tony
35 mins
neutral JH Trads : these solutions can conserve the meaning of 'si ce n'est que'. Indeed it would be necessary to know the preceding sentence in order to pick the best term in English>>Thanks, I believe 'except that' works fine in the context of the whole sentence
2 hrs
We do have it in fact now, in the discussion section.
agree writeaway : this sounds natural and fits the context.
4 hrs
agree Yolanda Broad
2 days 7 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

Other than the (mere) fact that he considered....as....

Hello,

You can get the general feel for the meaning in the following sentence, which is similar to "if only/except that" > other than mere fact (here).

"Au premier abord, rien n'avait changé, si ce n'est qu'il faisait jour. J'ai marché jusqu'au réverbère puis j'ai continué droit devant moi vers chez monsieur Tumnus ..."

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8171832/4/Découverte


See this link for meaning of "si ce n'est que" (in French):
http://www.languefrancaise.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=8073



I hope this helps.
Something went wrong...
-3
8 hrs

It it is believed that

Imho
Peer comment(s):
disagree Kim Metzger : The phrase in question is more complex than "it is believed that." See http://www.languefrancaise.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=8073
18 mins
disagree writeaway : the 'il' isn't it, it's he. this is a mistranslation because it changes the meaning of the French
3 hrs
disagree cc in nyc : "Il" refers to Friedman (not general belief) – and where did "si ce n’est que" go?
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search