Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 3, 2016:

I would say that you can know what you know.

However, what remains to be known is what you don't know that you don't know.

:-)

Michael Beijer Jun 3, 2016:

:>)) Your young and healthy skin is now officially part of my mental image of you, and shall remain so until I receive such information as to invalidate it.

Regarding knowing (or its evil twin), I'd say that you probably can't not know what you know, so you are probably right. Hmm, if a person "knows what they know", would this imply that they are also aware of what they don't know?

OK, I'll shut up now; I have a patent to finish, and am stuck on a 150-word sentence about something so abstract it can only be referred to obliquely, in morse code whispers.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 3, 2016:

Thank you so much, Michael, for your correct theory in this instance.

You are right, I know what I know in most cases.

Please also remember my young and healthy skin.

:-)

Michael Beijer Jun 3, 2016:

no pipe? oh well, there goes my whole theory You'd think I'd have learnt a thing or two from all the Agatha Christie I've been reading over the last few months. ;)

Funny how you form a picture of the various people here with no photo, or limited information on their profile, only to then have it smashed to bits by cold, harsh reality. I did guess your age right, more or less. I knew you couldn't be in your 20s, or even 30s, as you "speak" with far too authoritative a voice. ;-)

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 3, 2016:

Hey, Old Grandpa, I don't smoke, and certainly no pipe.

I would like to keep my skin young and healthy for many, many years to come.

:-)

Kitty Brussaard Jun 3, 2016:

loosely-connected loners, silent/stoic sufferers, conflict-prone/constant challengers...

freekfluweel Jun 3, 2016:

liberal loners based on KB's ref
.

katerina turevich (asker) Jun 3, 2016:

OK, this is for a definitive image Vrijzinnige vrijbuiters – chronic psychotics , reject medication, reject any (medical) help, and have little understanding of their own condition. Often exhibiting self-neglect and filthiness . They roam and end up socially isolated. Some relatives may be remotely concerned, but any support is precluded from the start.
this is from this text that Kitty put up: bemoei je ermee

Goodnight everybody! Tomorrow is a another day.

katerina turevich (asker) Jun 3, 2016:

yes, well yes, I am looking for some kind of similar colloquial description of a mental patient in an English speaking institution. It doesn't have to be colloquial as such, it should probably be used by staff to refer to particular patients. I can go now re-read Ken Kesey or Salinger and other literature. I was hoping someone could help.
- Barend, I hope your kind words will make summer stay in our neighborhood :-)
alliteration would be nice, but it is secondary.
I love Mavericks.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 3, 2016:

Can't focus on it now, Michael

All I can say at this point is that I do think this suggestion's register is much better in this context than that of 'Cross-bearing Christ figures', which would be contemptuous/mocking/grotesque.

Michael Beijer Jun 3, 2016:

@Barend: Hmm, given your statement:

"Zo is die 'kranige kruisdrager' iemand die 'al zijn lijden in isolement op zich neemt (en daarin volhardt, dat volhoudt)'."

maybe "Silent sufferers" for "Kranige kruidragers"?

But as you said, this is going to be very, very hard, especially if you want to retain some form of alliteration.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 2, 2016:

This is going to be a real challenge, Katerina, and it would probably be better if you took refuge to a desert island for a while to contemplate the meaning of these terms within this context and to find English terms that convey this specific meaning.

'vrijzinnig' obviously cannot be taken literally here.

It rather means that all their thinking is not troubled by any form of reality testing.

And 'vrijbuiter' rather refers to 'zwerver' here.

katerina turevich (asker) Jun 2, 2016:

it's from and for a glossary I used to work for Amsterdam Thuiszorg documentatiecentrum. We published a journal with relevant news, and kept track of the terminology employed in the field/company. My supervisor had a sense of humor and kept this. The records go back as far as the '90s, and in fact most of it is simple, but quite fascinating look at the Dutch Health Care system from a librarian's point of view, i.e. not biased in any way.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 2, 2016:

Goede link.

Het blijkt dat deze betitelingen niet denigrerend zijn bedoeld.
De definities zijn uitgebreider en bieden + de context meer inzicht in de bedoeling van die ogenschijnlijke 'funny' etiketten.

Zo is die 'kranige kruisdrager' iemand die 'al zijn lijden in isolement op zich neemt (en daarin volhardt, dat volhoudt)'.

De termen moeten begrepen worden in het kader van het betoog (zeer beperkt netwerk bv.)

Michael Beijer Jun 2, 2016:

ha ha, thanks Kitty forgot that it is possible to google it ;-)

Kitty Brussaard Jun 2, 2016:

Some context See http://tinyurl.com/zsxoyp3 (screenshot of a page from 'Bemoei je ermee - leidraad voor assertieve psychiatrische hulp aan zorgmijders', https://www.bol.com/nl/p/bemoei-je-ermee/666882810/).

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 2, 2016:

@ Michael

Agree.
You can hardly take this seriously, which is why I would like to know more about what this is all about.

Michael Beijer Jun 2, 2016:

@Barend: Indeed, the whole thing isn't exactly PC, or even very nice to people actually suffering from these kinds of conditions.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 2, 2016:

I would like to know what this is all about.
What the wider context is.
The audience.
And why they came up with these trivial labels.

Michael Beijer Jun 2, 2016:

thus: Vrijzinnige vrijbuiters
Kranige kruidragers
Standvastige strijders

=

Freethinking freebooters
Cross-bearing Christ figures
Quarrelsome combatants

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 2, 2016:

:-) I am sure Big Nurse would disapprove of this.
Randle probably would appreciate it.
The Chief might feel hurt by this level of insincerity.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 2, 2016:

It is not about degree, Katerina.

It seems to be a phony (?) attempt to label different types of psychotics.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 2, 2016:

Hij kan rijmen en dichten zonder zijn hemd op te lichten.

Please note the alliteration in all three of them:

v-v
k-k
s-s

Looks like they wanted to be 'original'.

What is this all about?

Michael Beijer Jun 2, 2016:

"a freethinking pirate" sounds kind of nice to me

other options:

freethinking filibuster
freethinking freebooter

*****************************
def. of "filibuster": A person engaging in unauthorized warfare against a foreign state. (compare w/ "chronic psychotic, rejects medicine" ;-)

origin of filibuster:

Late 18th century: from French flibustier, first applied to pirates who pillaged the Spanish colonies in the West Indies. In the mid 19th century (via Spanish filibustero), the term denoted American adventurers who incited revolution in several Latin American states, whence sense 2 of the noun. The verb was used to describe tactics intended to sabotage US congressional proceedings, whence sense 1 of the noun.

(oxforddictionaries.com)

katerina turevich (asker) Jun 2, 2016:

@TDVTrans OK, so it's a pirate, a freebooter, and a liberal on top of it. How do you fit it in the mental health context? They are psychotic at all times, reject medication and do what they want to do. Kind of Jack Nicholson-ish character. I think all these definitions are pretty bizarre, and I am not sure English equivalents exist.

TDVTrans Jun 2, 2016:

sorry for typo "liberal"

TDVTrans Jun 2, 2016:

This could perhaps get you in the right direction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster Check out the first paragraph, it gives a good translation of the word "vrijbuiter". For vrijzinnig, I would either go with 'libera' or 'free-thinking'.
Hope this helps.

katerina turevich (asker) Jun 2, 2016:

OK, sorry about it. I got carried away with multiple definitions - it seems these phrases all cover slightly different quirks

philgoddard Jun 2, 2016:

Your profile says you're a native English speaker. A native English speaker wouldn't dream of saying "various degree lunatics".