Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
hors de tout rang
English translation:
extraordinary (member)
Added to glossary by
Charles Davis
Apr 26, 2017 14:59
7 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term
France
Environmental translations
Native in: English (Variant: US)
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
hors de tout rang
French to English
Social Sciences
History
I'm translating a text about Peter the Great and his relations with France:
"Le 22 décembre 1717, l’Académie royale des sciences élit Pierre membre honoraire « hors de tout rang »".
The terme "hors de tout rang" seems to be taken directly from the Académie's site: "Pierre I, dit Le Grand
30 mai/9 juin 1672 à Moscou - 28 janvier/8 février 1725 à Saint-Pétersbourg. Associé étranger *hors de tout rang* le 22 décembre 1717".
It's unfortunately not translated on their site: http://www.academie-sciences.fr/fr/Liste-des-membres-depuis-...
I can't figure out how to say this in English. Any ideas, or should I just keep the French?
UK English ok.
Thanks in advance!
"Le 22 décembre 1717, l’Académie royale des sciences élit Pierre membre honoraire « hors de tout rang »".
The terme "hors de tout rang" seems to be taken directly from the Académie's site: "Pierre I, dit Le Grand
30 mai/9 juin 1672 à Moscou - 28 janvier/8 février 1725 à Saint-Pétersbourg. Associé étranger *hors de tout rang* le 22 décembre 1717".
It's unfortunately not translated on their site: http://www.academie-sciences.fr/fr/Liste-des-membres-depuis-...
I can't figure out how to say this in English. Any ideas, or should I just keep the French?
UK English ok.
Thanks in advance!
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 +2 | extraordinary (member) |
Charles Davis
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| 4 +1 | hors de tout rang |
mrrafe
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| 3 | an unranked, honorary member |
Christopher Crockett
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Change log
May 10, 2017 04:15: Charles Davis Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+2
2 hrs
Selected
extraordinary (member)
I think I will after all suggest this, on the understanding that I would like to keep the French expression as well, though working it all into the sentence will take some thought.
As I've mentioned in the discussion, membership "hors de tout rang" seems to be extremely rare and Peter may be the only example in France. Extraordinary membership of academies, on the other hand, is not all that uncommon. However, I think it has the advantage, at least, of conveying the idea of being outside the usual categories, or at least it can be interpreted that way.
I am emboldened to suggest it by the fact that it is used by an eminent historian B. H. Sumner, who was Warden of All Souls in Oxford, in a volume on Peter the Great and the Emergence of Russia published in 1951:
"He directed particular attention to the Academy of Sciences, of which he was elected an extraordinary member."
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.505859/2015.505...
As I've mentioned in the discussion, membership "hors de tout rang" seems to be extremely rare and Peter may be the only example in France. Extraordinary membership of academies, on the other hand, is not all that uncommon. However, I think it has the advantage, at least, of conveying the idea of being outside the usual categories, or at least it can be interpreted that way.
I am emboldened to suggest it by the fact that it is used by an eminent historian B. H. Sumner, who was Warden of All Souls in Oxford, in a volume on Peter the Great and the Emergence of Russia published in 1951:
"He directed particular attention to the Academy of Sciences, of which he was elected an extraordinary member."
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.505859/2015.505...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: Good idea, though I take anything said by Oxonians with a pinch of salt :-)
36 mins
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Probably wise :-) Thanks!
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| agree |
ph-b (X)
1 hr
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Many thanks!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
49 mins
hors de tout rang
The second link shows another English language author leaving it untranslated. The second link shows it as a military expression.
For me it has no meaning, except perhaps that Pyotr was designated on some honorary, irregular basis because he didn't "come up through the ranks" (as we say) as a credentialed scientist, similar to receiving a degree honoris causa without having matriculated.
But there are two problems with this theory: I thought he really was a scientist; and your original already mentions honoraire, so "hors de rang" used in that sense would be repetitive.
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Note added at 54 mins (2017-04-26 15:53:54 GMT)
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Sorry, meant to say the FIRST link shows another English author.
For me it has no meaning, except perhaps that Pyotr was designated on some honorary, irregular basis because he didn't "come up through the ranks" (as we say) as a credentialed scientist, similar to receiving a degree honoris causa without having matriculated.
But there are two problems with this theory: I thought he really was a scientist; and your original already mentions honoraire, so "hors de rang" used in that sense would be repetitive.
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Note added at 54 mins (2017-04-26 15:53:54 GMT)
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Sorry, meant to say the FIRST link shows another English author.
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: Now that we know it's for a museum display, I think Charles' solution is slightly better. But you didn't know that, and this would still be good in some contexts.
2 hrs
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yes
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44 mins
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
100
an unranked, honorary member
This is fudging a bit, but I don't know of another way to say it.
Peter was without an official "rank" (i.e., he did not hold an endowed fauteuil, nor was he an "Académicien-Associé"), but merely an honorary member.
This was --perhaps (I have no idea really)-- because he was, after all, not a Frenchman but a Russian; and, presumably, only Frenchmen could qualify as "ranked" or even associate members.
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Note added at 1 hr (2017-04-26 16:09:06 GMT)
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Phil makes a good point; and surely Peter the Great qualified "eminent" (if you like that sort of fellow).
I was assuming that "honorary" members were those who had achieved "eminence" in their own field, but who were, nevertheless, precluded from actual membership due to other factors (e.g., nationality or gender).
Newton, for example, might well have been an Honorary Member of the Academie Francaise (was he, btw?).
The question then becomes whether or not the "rang" which Peter was hors of refers to that of his political attainments or to his "ranking" within the context of the academy in question.
I assumed (from the syntax of the source sentence) that it was the latter; but Phil might well be right (if I understand him correctly) and it may be that "hors rang" does indeed refer to his general "transcendance" --in which case it needs to be translated that way.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-04-26 18:14:25 GMT)
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In view of our discussion above (and the fine explanatory texts which Charles has found), how about something like:
"On the 22nd of December, 1717, the French Royal Academy of Sciences made Peter an honorary member, with the special distinction of being 'hors de tout rang'"
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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-04-26 18:20:18 GMT)
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Add a bit of supplementary icing on that somewhat obscure cake:
"...of being 'hors de tout rang,' the highest level of membership which the Academy could bestow."
Peter was without an official "rank" (i.e., he did not hold an endowed fauteuil, nor was he an "Académicien-Associé"), but merely an honorary member.
This was --perhaps (I have no idea really)-- because he was, after all, not a Frenchman but a Russian; and, presumably, only Frenchmen could qualify as "ranked" or even associate members.
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Note added at 1 hr (2017-04-26 16:09:06 GMT)
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Phil makes a good point; and surely Peter the Great qualified "eminent" (if you like that sort of fellow).
I was assuming that "honorary" members were those who had achieved "eminence" in their own field, but who were, nevertheless, precluded from actual membership due to other factors (e.g., nationality or gender).
Newton, for example, might well have been an Honorary Member of the Academie Francaise (was he, btw?).
The question then becomes whether or not the "rang" which Peter was hors of refers to that of his political attainments or to his "ranking" within the context of the academy in question.
I assumed (from the syntax of the source sentence) that it was the latter; but Phil might well be right (if I understand him correctly) and it may be that "hors rang" does indeed refer to his general "transcendance" --in which case it needs to be translated that way.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-04-26 18:14:25 GMT)
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In view of our discussion above (and the fine explanatory texts which Charles has found), how about something like:
"On the 22nd of December, 1717, the French Royal Academy of Sciences made Peter an honorary member, with the special distinction of being 'hors de tout rang'"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2017-04-26 18:20:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Add a bit of supplementary icing on that somewhat obscure cake:
"...of being 'hors de tout rang,' the highest level of membership which the Academy could bestow."
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
philgoddard
: This is a good approximation if you decide to translate it, though it doesn't convey what I presume is the idea that he's so eminent that he transcends all ranks.
5 mins
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Yes, it really defies translation; it's wonderfully vague French in the way that only French can be wonderfully Vague --linguistic cotton candy. I don't think that his transcendant eminance is necessarily implied here, however. Thanks, Phil.
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| neutral |
mrrafe
: "It's good to be the King." - Mel Brooks
18 mins
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Well, the question is, is it hors rang to be king --or are we just dealing with a king who is hors rang within the academy? Is that question even answerable? Thanks mrrafe.
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Discussion
Peter was supposedly elected for his study of the Caspian Sea. As monarchs go, he was not a philistine, though he certainly seems to have been a hooligan; his party trashed John Evelyn's house in Deptford, where they stayed in 1698.
Which reminds me: many years ago, when I was first taken to the Greenwich Observatory on a school trip, I was told that Peter the Great caroused there with Edmund Halley, of comet fame. I'm sorry to find on checking now that this is apocryphal; Peter almost certainly never met Halley or Newton while in England. Makes you wonder how interested in science he really was.
Contrast this with a story I like very much about John Dalton, one of the greatest scientists of the nineteenth century. In 1826 the French chemist Pelletier went all the way to Manchester to meet him, and found him teaching elementary mathematics in a Quaker school. "Est-ce que j'ai l'honneur de m'addresser à Monsieur Dalton ?", asked Pelletier. "Yes," replied Dalton, "wilt thou sit down whilst I put this lad right about his arithmetic?".
Suggests that
1)we're not dealing with a one-of situation with Great Pete, but with some kind of recognized institutionalized status for (particularly) royal Muckety-Mucks --the exact nature of which, of course, would have been well known, to Those in the Know (us ignerint peasants just have to guess).
and, from the added context that,
2) in addition to the honor of being admitted to the learned societé (as a membre honoraire, which was, after all, open to all foreigners who were recognized in their particular fields), but that there was, far above that high status, yet another "rank" which could be bestowed upon the *really* sublime royal, one that was Off the Chart: hors de tout rang" So exalted that this August Personage "deserves" to be placed at the top of "our list" (i.e., the list of member which were at the beginning of the annually published Mémoires of the academy), before *all* other sorts of (mere mortal) types of members, their name inscribed "en grosses lettres" --just in case any peasant didn't get the Message.
We’re talking Big Bucks, here: money for publication costs, travel expenses, expenses at court, the “legalized” graft which was the very essence of the Ancien Régime.
And money for the academy members (from the lesser nobility), who had distinguished themselves by their research in their own specialized fields and/or in their literary achievements.
Contrary to what he might himself think, Mr. Trump did *not* invent Narcissistic Personality Disorder --it has a rather long history, and the Royalty of Europe (enabled by their multiple sycophants) were right up there, begging to be flattered with being “hors rang” and receiving “un magnifique diplôme” commemorating their introduction into the prestigious learned society, together with the latest volume of the society’s Memoires, “magnifiquement relié” complete with their ancient family’s coat of arms stamped in the finest gold leaf on the front board.
That's "hors de tout rang" means.
"l'homme qui s'est fait un rang, un état, une manière d'être tout-à-fait hors de la France, hors de l'Europe, hors de tout rang connu, soit royal, soit impérial ; qui a fait de trois ou quatre rois les premiers assistans de son trône ; qui a pris l'habitude de mander les rois ses feudataires pour venir relever l'éclat de ses fêtes [...]"
https://books.google.es/books?id=vK5OAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA47&dq="ho...
And more in that vein. The writer is clearly repelled by Napoleon's overweening arrogance, but equally clearly (I think) the sense of "hors de tout rang connu" is pre-eminence.
I thought of "extraordinary". I admit that "extraordinary members" of academies are not (paradoxically) all that unusual, but still, it might be a way round the difficulty.
"Der Besuch der Académie des Sciences in Paris 1717, die Peter als Mitglied hors de tout rang aufnahm, dürfte einen prägenden Eindruck hinterlassen haben."
http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/32711196/Wilh...
As to what it means, perhaps the slightly later example of another Russian monarch, Catherine the Great, may offer a clue, in the account of an academician (I'm not sure which) reported by Dieudonné Thiébault (1826). She was admitted as a member "hors de tout rang" of Frederick the Great's Academy in Berlin:
"Ce que je sais, c'est que nous reçûmes ordre de la nommer notre confrère par acclamation, et de la placer sur notre liste, hors de tout rang, en grosses lettres, et avant toute indication d'autres académiciens, soit honoraires, ordinaires, associés ou étrangers."
https://books.google.es/books?id=-fO2pIj0Od0C&pg=PA113&lpg=P...
The text is the Academie's own history of the organization.
I believe that, usually, there were a set number of full-fledged (first rank?) members, corresponding to the number of endowed "chairs" (literally, fauteuils) there were --originally established by the King. (I believe that the number of fauteuils was set at 40 for the Academie francaise and the Academie des Inscriptions et Belles Lettres).
In addition to these, there were various kinds (ranks??) of other members --associate ("Académicien-Associé"), honorary, or perhaps with other titles-- qualified guys who were granted some kind of association with the academy (like publication, etc.) without having to wait for Dead Man's Shoes to become full members.
So, the situation was (best I can make out) bewilderingly complex in the fashion that only the French can make a situation.
Just guessing, I'd say that "hors de tout rang" meant simply [sic] that this guy was not a "real" (full fledged, with a fauteuil of his own) member of the Academy, but only an "honorary one."
seems to be used by some, e.g.
http://www.rusartnet.com/biographies/russian-rulers/romanov/...