Feb 13, 2017 18:59
7 yrs ago
41 viewers *
French term
Souche
French to English
Law/Patents
Certificates, Diplomas, Licenses, CVs
Birth certificate
Hello,
I'm translating a birth certificate and it is titled "Attestation d'existence de souche".
The word also appears further down in the same document. The context is:
Le Maire de [...] atteste que l'acte de naissance de [...], née le [...], à [...], de [parents' names], a une souche existente dans les registres de naissance de la Mairie de [...].
Thank you in advance!
I'm translating a birth certificate and it is titled "Attestation d'existence de souche".
The word also appears further down in the same document. The context is:
Le Maire de [...] atteste que l'acte de naissance de [...], née le [...], à [...], de [parents' names], a une souche existente dans les registres de naissance de la Mairie de [...].
Thank you in advance!
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +2 | counterfoil | Nikki Scott-Despaigne |
3 +1 | stub | Nathalie Stewart |
Proposed translations
+2
14 mins
Selected
counterfoil
In addition to my reference post, this should help.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/d95cb51d...
This record is held by Northamptonshire Record Office
See contact details
Reference: PL 4/436
Description:
Counterfoils of Birth Certificates
Date: 1910 - 1920
Held by: Northamptonshire Record Office, not available at The National Archives
Language: English
Context of this record
154 - Northamptonshire Record Office
PL - Northamptonshire Poor Law Union Records
PL 4 - Hardingstone Union
Indoor relief
General Health
Miscellaneous
PL 4/436 - Counterfoils of Birth Certificates
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Note added at 15 mins (2017-02-13 19:14:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
For despatches, so probably also currently for hatches and matches!
http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/Media/suhtideal/Doctors/MedicalPersonn...
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Note added at 16 mins (2017-02-13 19:15:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here you go : "counterfoil" seems to be in current usgae in such contexts in the UK :
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/d95cb51d...
This record is held by Northamptonshire Record Office
See contact details
Reference: PL 4/436
Description:
Counterfoils of Birth Certificates
Date: 1910 - 1920
Held by: Northamptonshire Record Office, not available at The National Archives
Language: English
Context of this record
154 - Northamptonshire Record Office
PL - Northamptonshire Poor Law Union Records
PL 4 - Hardingstone Union
Indoor relief
General Health
Miscellaneous
PL 4/436 - Counterfoils of Birth Certificates
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 mins (2017-02-13 19:14:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
For despatches, so probably also currently for hatches and matches!
http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/Media/suhtideal/Doctors/MedicalPersonn...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2017-02-13 19:15:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here you go : "counterfoil" seems to be in current usgae in such contexts in the UK :
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Charles Davis
: Better than stub for this, I think.
13 mins
|
neutral |
B D Finch
: The "souche" is the original entry in the register, proof of which enables issue of a replacement certificate. A counterfoil is a carbon, rather than a top copy.
24 mins
|
Yes, although "stub" in UK English cannot be the original, but a minimalist adjacent note of the elements of the record. "Counterfoil" is probably not correct either for similar reasons, even if the UK system has a counterfoil system. See discu.
|
|
agree |
thescarid
: in France counterfoil is the term. It refers to the permanent record that remains in the civil register for births, deaths, marriages
5 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
13 mins
stub
Apparently, some countries/states use birth certificate stub books where births are entered in chronological order, by date of birth:
http://archives.delaware.gov/collections/guide/9000S/9200L03...
There are also stub books for naturalization certificates:
https://www.ancestry.com/wiki/index.php?title=American_Sourc...
From a stub book for naturalization certificates. This one was issued to Julius August Behnke in the U.S. Court, Northern District of Ohio, Cleveland. The original stub book is now preserved at the National Archives—Great Lake Region in Chicago.
And for marriages:
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/664181?availability=...
Affidavit for marriage license, stub book, 1909-1927
http://archives.delaware.gov/collections/guide/9000S/9200L03...
There are also stub books for naturalization certificates:
https://www.ancestry.com/wiki/index.php?title=American_Sourc...
From a stub book for naturalization certificates. This one was issued to Julius August Behnke in the U.S. Court, Northern District of Ohio, Cleveland. The original stub book is now preserved at the National Archives—Great Lake Region in Chicago.
And for marriages:
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/664181?availability=...
Affidavit for marriage license, stub book, 1909-1927
Peer comment(s):
agree |
B D Finch
: archives.valdoise.fr/ark:/18127/vta520266bdc84fc //However, it could be a register entry. The point is that it is the original on the basis of which copies/certificates can be issued.
21 mins
|
Thank you!
|
Reference comments
12 mins
Reference:
This may help
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichJuriAdmin.do?idTexte=CE...
qu'elle fait valoir en troisième lieu, qu'elle est de bonne foi et que l'acte d'état civil qu'elle a produit, n'est entaché d'aucune fraude alors qu'il ressort des pièces du dossier que ce document ne correspond pas aux souches des registres d'état civil locaux qui d'ailleurs visent des personnes de sexe masculin, et comporte des discordances en ce qui concerne sa rédaction et ses énonciations et la signature de l'officier du registre avec lesdites souches ; que la requérante soutient que l'autorité consulaire, en refusant de tenir compte du jugement supplétif rendu par le tribunal de première instance de Kpalimé en date du 29 juillet 2004 qui a estimé que la pièce qu'elle détenait était entachée d'erreur matérielle et a annulé la souche de l'acte de naissance n° 424 du 11 novembre 1976 et ordonné la reconstitution de cette souche, a méconnu les stipulations de la convention judiciaire conclue entre la France et le Togo alors que l'annulation prononcée par ce jugement porte sur une souche d'acte de naissance qui ne concerne pas l'intéressée et n'a donc pu venir suppléer les inexactitudes affectant la déclaration de naissance qu'elle produit ;
qu'elle fait valoir en troisième lieu, qu'elle est de bonne foi et que l'acte d'état civil qu'elle a produit, n'est entaché d'aucune fraude alors qu'il ressort des pièces du dossier que ce document ne correspond pas aux souches des registres d'état civil locaux qui d'ailleurs visent des personnes de sexe masculin, et comporte des discordances en ce qui concerne sa rédaction et ses énonciations et la signature de l'officier du registre avec lesdites souches ; que la requérante soutient que l'autorité consulaire, en refusant de tenir compte du jugement supplétif rendu par le tribunal de première instance de Kpalimé en date du 29 juillet 2004 qui a estimé que la pièce qu'elle détenait était entachée d'erreur matérielle et a annulé la souche de l'acte de naissance n° 424 du 11 novembre 1976 et ordonné la reconstitution de cette souche, a méconnu les stipulations de la convention judiciaire conclue entre la France et le Togo alors que l'annulation prononcée par ce jugement porte sur une souche d'acte de naissance qui ne concerne pas l'intéressée et n'a donc pu venir suppléer les inexactitudes affectant la déclaration de naissance qu'elle produit ;
20 mins
Reference:
We've had this several times before.
Stub and counterfoil are both fine.
Reference:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/law_general/1684594-registre_%C3%A0_souche.html
Discussion
Irrespective of whether the term "stub" or "counterfoil" is prefereable, no doubt a UK/US thig, I reckon that if "souche" here is being used for the original and full copy on the register, then it neither will apply, as both are for a reduced trace of some original that has been extracted.
We need to be sure of the tru nature of "souche" in context, thus country of original text.
Another point is that we don't yet know the country of origin or the date of the document. Is it French? Is it old? Most of the references to "souches" of this kind seem to come from Africa.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/counter...
A stub and a counterfoil are basically the same thing, except that (1) stub usually implies something small, whereas counterfoil doesn't, and (2) counterfoil is mainly (only?) used in British English, whereas stub is much more common in American English. This is refleted in the sources quoted by the two answerers. So if UK English is required, counterfoil is definitely preferable, and indeed it's used in UK official sources.
It is quite untrue that a counterfoil is a carbon copy. It can be, but it certainly doesn't have to be, and when the UK government refers to the counterfoil of a birth certificate it means what souche means, as indicated in the definition quoted above.
The final rendering has to convey the true meaning of the French. If it refers to the full original, then perhaps it should be translated as "registered entry" or something along those lines?
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/souche
To help explain what the term means, then think of a checkbook stub; the stub is a "souche". Without having researched this at all, I think you may find it means something along those lines, a stub in the register, a written trace, that the birth was indeed recorded in the register.