Mar 10, 2014 09:49
10 yrs ago
German term

Grossdeutschtum

German to English Social Sciences History
Is this just a synonym for Pangermanismus/Alldeutsche Bewegung?

I ask in connection with a Czech>English question at http://www.proz.com/kudoz/czech_to_english/history/5495084-v...

"When the border regions (of Bohemia) became part of the Third Reich, a wave of velkoněmectví (literally Grossdeutschtum) swept over the region"

Discussion

Jonathan MacKerron Mar 10, 2014:
embracing Germanness / jingoistic Germanness hyper-Germanness

couple of shots in the dark
Yorkshireman Mar 10, 2014:
Intense pro-Germanism? Seems to be what might fit the bill.

Or "intense German nationalism"
Max Hellwig Mar 10, 2014:
:) Sure, no problem. Feels good to put my studies to use for once ;)
Stuart Hoskins (asker) Mar 10, 2014:
Thanks for your help and time, Max (and everyone else), you've been very helpful.
Max Hellwig Mar 10, 2014:
If the Czech word was really translated from German, there is also a good chance that something got lost or twisted.
Max Hellwig Mar 10, 2014:
Großdeutschtum means nothing to me either. Plus, as i said, it doesn't even make sense. The alldeutsche Bewegung is definitely a pan-German movement, i would even say that would be the best translation. The thing with Deutschtum as Germanness is that Germanness would be translated as Deutschheit, which would more or less cover the meaning of Deutschtum, but not have the nationalist connotation, as it is not a word that actually exists and was therefore never used in the corresponding context. Also, the -tum suffix does not give a word the meaning that -ism does (Pangermaninsmus is a proper German word, that is used by historians.), but on the other hand, considering the meaning of Deutschtum, a wave of it cannot sweep a region (It would mean the population suddenly became German, or something like that). I think it would be best, if you conferred with your client, asking them what meaning was intended and giving them suggestions for the translation.
Stuart Hoskins (asker) Mar 10, 2014:
Expansionism This is what I was thinking of in the context, Yorkshireman. The Sudeten Germans had always felt pan-Germanism prior to 1938, but then suddenly, with the Sudetenland ceded to Germany (their big dream had come true), they were engulfed in the euphoria of German expansionism[?] [“Big Germanness”]
Stuart Hoskins (asker) Mar 10, 2014:
Big Germanness I'm just trying to convey the Czech, i.e. "Gross/velko (big) Deutschtum/němectví (Germanness)". In Czech, as in German, they convey "pan-" in the same way as German, i.e. "pan-" or "vše-" (= "All-"). My point is that when i hear "velko-" ("gross-") in Czech, I wouldn't say it is the same as "pan-", but in the case of "Grossdeutschtum" perhaps it is...
Yorkshireman Mar 10, 2014:
How about... German expansionism
Edith Kelly Mar 10, 2014:
Big Germanness means absolutely nothing to me. Still, looking at your sentence, Pan-Germanism would do nicely.
Stuart Hoskins (asker) Mar 10, 2014:
That's an interesting point, Max. I wonder how this "big" has cropped up in the Czech (it must be a translation from German).
Stuart Hoskins (asker) Mar 10, 2014:
Do you feel a difference in meaning between Grossdeutschtum and Pangermanismus? Or, perhaps, does "Grossdeutschtum" not really say anything to you at at all?
Max Hellwig Mar 10, 2014:
But Deutschtum means the mentality and culture of Germans in general, expressly including ethnic Germans that didn't live in the German Empire. So, adding Groß- would be redundant at least.
Stuart Hoskins (asker) Mar 10, 2014:
Edith The Czech literally means "Big Germanness", so my guess is definitely "Grossdeutschtum".
vtimp Mar 10, 2014:
This refers to the ideas before 1848/ 1871, the definition of Germany. Initially, the idea was that Austria would be part of Germany. If Austria (and its consitutent parts, i.e. Bohemia, Hungary is part of Germany, this is Großdeutschland, and if not, this is Kleindeutschland. Not sure how that helps for a translation, but Großdeutschtum refers to a Germany that comprises Austria.
Edith Kelly Mar 10, 2014:
Stuart I had a look at the Czech>German question. Are you really sure that the proposals are correct? Grossdeutschtum was not proposed, it seems to be according to what you write a literal translation. But does it make sense? See what Max Hellwig wrote.
Max Hellwig Mar 10, 2014:
also Deutschtum ist eine heute eher seltene Bezeichnung für ein deutsches Wesen, eine Kultur von Deutschen, auch außerhalb Deutschlands (vgl. Volkstum).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschtum#Begriffliche_Abgrenz...
So, Deutschtum means something like the mentality and culture of Germans...
Max Hellwig Mar 10, 2014:
Großdeutschland - Greater German Empire The official name of the state was Deutsches Reich (German Reich) from 1933 to 1943, and Großdeutsches Reich (Greater German Reich) from 1943 to 1945. The name Deutsches Reich is usually translated into English as "German Empire" or "German Reich".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany
The -tum suffix is difficult to translate, especially in connection with deutsch. The word Deutschtum doesn't even really make sense to me as a native speaker, if closely examined. So, -ism might be as good as it gets...
Stuart Hoskins (asker) Mar 10, 2014:
Definitely German to English I want to know how a German speaker would translate (or explain) Grossdeutschtum in(to) English. Whether it is exactly the same as Pangermanismus or whether it has a slightly different feel.
Edith Kelly Mar 10, 2014:
Allgermanentum / Alldeutschtum would be Pan-Germanism according to this treatise that you probably cannot read
www.davidsfonds.be/edition/files/Eindnoten-CopyVERB.pdf
gangels (X) Mar 10, 2014:
yes pangermanism
Edith Kelly Mar 10, 2014:
Stuart you should post this under Czech>English. If your translation into German is correct, then you could say: Pan-Germanism
Stuart Hoskins (asker) Mar 10, 2014:
English! I would like to know how you would deal with it in English.
Edith Kelly Mar 10, 2014:
English? Do you wish to have this term in English? Or do you wish to have a translation from Czech to German?

Proposed translations

+1
7 hrs
Selected

enthusiasm/agitation/fervour for (a) Greater Germany

!) Assuming you are committed to “wave of”, you need something suitable to follow: “a wave of enthusiasm/agitation/fervour…”

2) Greater German (adjective) nationalism is linguistically challenging for the reader as, at first glance, it suggests increased nationalism on the part of Germans. You therefore need a formulation that is built around Greater Germany (noun): "enthusiasm/agitation for", "belief in"; "dedication to"

"Heim ins Reich," which literally means "Home into the Empire," was a policy pursued by Hitler beginning with the Anschluss of Austria and the annexation of Czechoslovakia's Sudetenland in 1938. The ultimate aim was to convince ethnic Germans living outside the Third Reich to agitate to be included in a so-called "Greater Germany."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/05/hillary-clinton-c...

In view of all these considerations, the welcome accorded by the Swiss people and their representatives to their imperial host should not pass the point of simple dignity. It would be very regrettable if the Swiss people, by associating themselves too enthusiastically with the demonstrations of the 300,000 Germans who live in Switzerland, and the thousands who have flocked to Switzerland for the occasion, should give the impression that their enthusiasm for Greater Germany is more to them than their Republican traditions.
http://www.archive.org/stream/edinburghreviewo217londuoft/ed...

Even the young, for all their enthusiasm for a Greater Germany, were now anxious about the situation.
http://tinyurl.com/p9nmggd

In spite of their enthusiasm for a greater Germany, the various elements in liberalism have lacked the cementing force of some economic interest, and all of the brilliance of orators and statesmen like Bassermann and Paasche has not been able to replace this lack.
https://archive.org/stream/germanempirebetw027386mbp/germane...


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Note added at 9 hrs (2014-03-10 19:29:58 GMT)
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One of those factors was the compliance of conservative elites in the military, the civil administration and the world of business. They did not share Hitler's crude concept of racial superiority, and many of them feared a war with the Western powers. Nevertheless, they dreamed of acquiring global power and had aspirations to create a Greater Germany that would, at the very least, dominate Eastern Europe. They included men like Franz Halder, the commander-in-chief of the army, who announced in the spring of 1939 that his men had to overrun Poland and would then, "filled with the spirit of having emerged victorious from enormous battles, be prepared to either oppose Bolshevism or be thrown to the West."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-road-to-world...


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Note added at 2 days15 hrs (2014-03-13 01:19:30 GMT)
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Pan-Germanism
I would associate this with the voluntary unification of states and peoples that had been artificially kept separate in the sole interest of their local rulers (Kleinstaaterei*). It is far too harmless a term/concept to apply to the annexation by force of a territory on the basis that a vocal minority 'invite' the protection of their kinsman over the border, as was the case in Bohemia/Sudetenland in 1938 (parallels with Crimea in 2014)

The song is also well known by the incipit and refrain of the first stanza, "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" (literally, "Germany, Germany above all"), but this has never been its title. The line "Germany, Germany above all" meant that the most important goal of the Vormärz revolutionaries should be a unified Germany overcoming the perceived anti-liberal Kleinstaaterei. Along with the Flag of Germany, it was one of the symbols of the March Revolution of 1848.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandlied

Kleinstaaterei is a German word, mainly used to denote the territorial fragmentation in Germany and neighbouring regions during the Holy Roman Empire (especially after the end of the Thirty Years' War) and during the German Confederation in the first half of the 19th century.[1] It refers to the large number of virtually sovereign medium and small secular and ecclesiastical principalities and Free Imperial cities, some of which were little larger than a single town or the grounds of the monastery of an Imperial abbey. Estimates of the total number of German states at any given time during the 18th century varies, ranging from 294 to 348,[2] to more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinstaaterei
Peer comment(s):

agree opolt : Hits the nail on the head for me.
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks to everyone for their quality suggestions."
+1
2 hrs

Greater German nationalism

'A wave of greater German nationalism washed over the region.'

Seems to me that historians have widely applied this term to distinctly different historical periods. I don't always see a clear-cut distinction between Greater German Nationalism and Pan-Germanism even though most seem to refer to Pan-Germanism as a political movement of the eighteen hundreds.

Compare with examples below:

"After the Anschluss these Nazi appeals to a Greater German nationalism became irresistible to the Sudeten Germans." http://books.google.com/books?id=Qy8WaU4FiL4C&pg=PA113&lpg=P...

"A common cultural German nationalism, for example, emerged during the fiftieth anniversary of the city's liberation. International events prior to and during 1863 certainly influenced Hamburgers' attitudes toward greater German nationalism." http://books.google.com/books?id=FVq5AAAAIAAJ&q="greater ger...
Peer comment(s):

agree Jim Tucker (X) : or Pan-Germanism (whose goal was Grossdeutschland) / Yes I think you're right.
7 hrs
Thanks, Jim. But I am not sure about Pan-Germanism, though.
Something went wrong...
1 day 4 hrs

German imperialism

That's what I think I would use
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

10 hrs
Reference:

großdeutsch/alldeutsch

"This article […] argues that the großdeutsch idea (the historical idea that a German nation state should include Austria) and support for an Anschluss (an Austro-German political union) were central to republicans’ energetic efforts to win over sceptics and attack the claims of their political opponents. Members of the Weimar Coalition parties and the Social Democratic Party of Austria drew a distinction between großdeutsch (greater German) and alldeutsch (pan-German) conceptions of nationhood, and thereby attempted to articulate a form of German nationalism that was compatible with a democratic body politic, a pluralistic society and peaceful international relations."
http://gh.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/1/29.abstract
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Jim Tucker (X) : ...though the same distinction probably doesn't apply to the Third Reich, especially given the last three criteria in the above description.
6 hrs
agree Kirsten Bodart : Pan-Germanism likely gave rise to the NS movement too (or contributed to it in a major way). Pan-Germanism has my vote too.
15 hrs
the author of this article seems to suggest alldeutsch=pan German
agree Helen Shiner
2 days 3 hrs
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