This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
H.a
austasten
Jan 12, 2012 16:00
12 yrs ago
6 viewers *
German term

entstammen

German to English Law/Patents Certificates, Diplomas, Licenses, CVs
Sentence from an Austrian divorce decree: "Der Ehe entstammen keine Kinder." My first though is to translate this as: "No children were born of this union." On the other hand, what if the couple had adoptive children? Then you can't say "born", can you? Does anyone have a good idea on how to cover this eventuality?

Thanks all.
Mary
Proposed translations (English)
3 there were no children to the marriage
4 +3 the couple did not have any children (from this marriage)
4 +1 or: the marriage was childless
3 +1 to descend
References
examples of common wordings
entstammen, abstammen
issue/issues + "covering all the bases"

Discussion

Johannes Gleim Jan 14, 2012:
All answers are possible: But what would result if retranslated?

Proposal 1: the couple did not have any children (from this marriage) => Das Paar hatte keine Kinder (aus dieser Ehe)

Proposal 2: to descend => abstammen

Proposal 3: the marriage was childless => Die Ehe war kinderlos

Proposal 4: there were no children to the marriage => es gab keine Kinder aus dieser Ehe
AllegroTrans Jan 13, 2012:
My halfpennyworth as another native EN-speaker. "Without issue" relating to marriage and used in Court orders etc. can only mean one things - that there were no children born of the mariiage.
Nicola Wood Jan 13, 2012:
I am sorry Johannes but I still disagree with you. "Marriage without issue"/ "the marriage was without issue" is a fixed phrase meaning a marriage which did not produce any children, and is therefore unambiguous in this context. It has nothing to do with disputes on legal guardianship, financial problems, or anything of that nature, although these could be an issue in divorce proceedings. You see, I do not deny that issue can mean a problem or point of contention, but my point is that it would never be understood in that way in the phrase "the marriage was without issue".

Just to play devil's advocate, if "entstammen" is, as you say, the more genealogical term, then according to Horst Huber's comment on your reference entry "without issue" would be the best answer here, because he describes it as the word for genealogy.
Johannes Gleim Jan 13, 2012:
No problem I do not contradict to "issue", but would highlight the ambiguity of this term on the one hand and that abstammen/entstammen is more a genealogical term than others like "kinderlos", "ohne Kinder" or "ohne Nachkommen" (for which ‘without issue’ can be used, meaning that there is no dispute on legal guardianship [and/or financial problems]) on the other hand.
Nicola Wood Jan 13, 2012:
To summarise: I have never claimed that issue is a standard translation of entstammen (not abstammen) - nor have I cast any doubt on your ability to understand your own language. I have merely stated my opinion, as a native speaker of English, that this is a standard rendition of this phrase in English that has nothing to do with marital issues/ problems or having issues/ problems (a phrase, you might note, which is frequently expressed in the plural - another difference). I apologise if you feel you were being personally attacked, but if you state so categorically that another person's answer is wrong you must be sure you are in the right, and I felt it my duty to point out for the asker's benefit - which, after all, is why we are here - that issue should not be dismissed so lightly.
Nicola Wood Jan 13, 2012:
@ Johannes I disagree that your references prove marriage without issue to mean anything other than without children - the reference citing accepting a divorce without issue is an entirely diffferent case!

My point is that you cannot argue that issue only means to have problems as you state - look at the grammar alone. As a verb issue in English means, and I am quoting from the Chambers English dictionary here: vi. to go, flow or come out; to proceed, as from a source; to spring; to be produced; to come to a point in facct or law (law); to turn out, result, terminate - not one of those meanings is to have problems. Furthermore issue meaning to proceed as from a source suggests one could easily say no children issued from the marriage, which would exactly match the original German construction! However, as a competent native speaker of German I recognise that this is no longer common usage and prefer to change to the more common use and a standard phrase for expressing the meaning of the German, which uses issue as a noun meaning - and again I quote from the dictionary - fruits of the body, children. Then again I could prefer issueless, meaning (dictionary again) childless!
Johannes Gleim Jan 13, 2012:
continued The last item has also translations given by Leo:

descendants pl. die Nachkommenschaft
issue [law] die Nachkommenschaft
offspring [biol.] die Nachkommenschaft
posterity die Nachkommenschaft
progeny die Nachkommenschaft
succession die Nachkommenschaft
http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType...

Please consider that do not talk about „Nachkommenschaft“, but about „Abstammung/entstammen” (what is the inverse direction)
Johannes Gleim Jan 13, 2012:
continued Please consider the following entries in "Collins German Dictionary, 280.000 entries on 816 pages), too:

- abstammen vi sep no ptp to be descendend (von from); (Ling) to be derived (von from).
Abstammung f descent; (Abkunft auch ) origin, extraction; (Ling) origin, derivation,
ehelicher/unehelicher ~ (Jur) of ligitimate/illegitimat birth;
französischer ~ of French extraction or descent

entstammen vi aux sein +dat to stem or come from; einer Familie auch to be descended from (fig auch) to originate in or from

issue 1 vt
(a) (give, send out) .. ausstellen
(b) (publish) .. herausgeben
(c) (supply) ... ausgeben
2 vi (liquid; gas) austreten; (smoke) herausquellen ...
3 n
(a) (question) Frage f; (mattter also) Angelegenheit; problematic) Problem nt ...
(b) (outcome, result) Ergebnis nt ...
(c) (giving out) (banknotes, shares ...) Ausgabe; Emission ...
(d) (handing out) Ausgabe f (supplying …) Lieferung …
(e) (of book etc) Herausgabe …
(f) (of liquid, gas) Ausströmen …
(g) (Jur: offspring) Nachkommenschaft

(continued)
Johannes Gleim Jan 13, 2012:
@ Nicola If you read all of my references, you will find that "without issue" is not targeted to "no children", but to problems.

By the way, we do not have to translate "problemlose Scheidung", but "keine Kinder entstammen dieser Ehe". And this is quite different. It deals with the question, whether the couple has children or not.
You may consent that I can well distinguish between "Abstammung" and "Nachkommenschaft" (see next discussion entry)
Nicola Wood Jan 13, 2012:
@ Johannes There is a difference between issue and issues, at least in terms of marriage. Issue would mean offspring, whilst issues definitely refers to problems. A marriage without issue would mean a childless marriage and may be a good or bad thing depending on the situation or your point of view. A marriage without issues on the other hand is what everybody hopes for when they get married, but few, if any, have enjoyed!
philgoddard Jan 13, 2012:
Well, thanks for sharing that with us, Johannes. You obviously know better than we do.
Johannes Gleim Jan 12, 2012:
issues No matter what different meanings "issue" may have, it does not mean "descend from somebody", but to have problems (of any kind). If the couple has children or money, they have problems in either case.
philgoddard Jan 12, 2012:
In that case I think you're making things more complicated than they need to be :-)
mary austria (asker) Jan 12, 2012:
Am trying to cover all bases.
philgoddard Jan 12, 2012:
Did the couple adopt children, or are you just trying to cover all the bases?

Proposed translations

1 day 1 hr
Selected

there were no children to the marriage

Please see reference section and discussion (thanks, Mary, for asking me to post this).

A couple of examples, from the UK and the US

FACTS: The Crossley case, in 2008, involved a very short marriage of only 14 months duration between two very wealthy individuals. The husband was worth between £45-60 million and the wife, in her own right, worth about £18 million. There were no children to the marriage. Both parties had entered into a prenuptial agreement prior to the marriage and each of them had taken independent legal advice.
http://www.prenuptialagreementsuk.co.uk/ukcases-prenuptial-a...

Facts. The parties married in July of 1968 and separated in September of 1968. There were no children to the marriage. In October, the wife filed a verified complaint for divorce on the ground of extreme cruelty.
http://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/family-law/family-law-key...
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Alison, thanks again for the wonderfully researched reference. And thanks to everyone else für die rege Diskussion!!"
+3
5 mins

the couple did not have any children (from this marriage)

You can probably leave out the bit in brackets. "Born of this union" sounds a bit old fashioned.
Peer comment(s):
agree Barbara Greenwood : This is definitely what they meant here. I have seen it often before.
1 hr
agree Johanna Timm, PhD : yes, but do not leave out the "marriage" bit. I've listed a few alternatives in the reference box
4 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
1 day 6 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
6 mins

to descend

No children are descended from this family.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 mins (2012-01-12 16:10:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or: The couple left/had no descendants.
Peer comment(s):
agree Johannes Gleim : see reference
50 mins
Yes, thank you.
Something went wrong...
+1
2 hrs

or: the marriage was childless

one more option
Peer comment(s):
agree Nicola Wood : Simple and to the point. Seems a very good solution to me.
17 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

4 hrs
Reference:

examples of common wordings

Of this marriage, no children have been born.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ok-supreme-court/1563293.html

no children have been born of this marriage
http://ohio-supreme-court.vlex.com/vid/nickel-v-21629896

no children have been born to the parties
www.southernjudicialcircuit.com/selfhelp/.../ANNULMENT.pdf
Something went wrong...
49 mins
Reference:

entstammen, abstammen

to be descended from sth. etw.Dat. entstammen | entstammte, entstammt |
to emanate from sth. etw.Dat. entstammen | entstammte, entstammt |
to originate from sth. etw.Dat. entstammen | entstammte, entstammt |
http://www.google.de/search?q="divorce decree"&hl=de&prmd=im...

to descend from so./sth. von jmdm./etw. abstammen
to be descended from so. von jmdm. abstammen
to originate from so. von jmdm. abstammen
to spring from so./sth. von jmdm./etw. abstammen
to stem from sth. von etw.Dat. abstammen
to be a direct descendant of in direkter Linie abstammen von
http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType...

The main goal of this project was to prove or disprove that the BlocKer family of America descends from the BlocHer / PlocHer family in Germany, and use the test results of the various descendants for future genealogical study.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Blocker-Blocher-Plocher/


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 56 mins (2012-01-12 16:56:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"without issue" is also used, but this term focusses more than children alone:

MacLeod of MacLeod married Drusilla Mary Shaw on 25 July 1961. The marriage was dissolved by divorce, without issue, on 31 March 1971. MacLeod of MacLeod also had a natural son, Stephan (born 1971).[5] MacLeod of MacLeod secondly married Melita Kolin 19 March 1973. The couple had two children: Hugh Magnus (born 1973); and Elena Mary Nadezhda (born 1977). His second marriage was dissolved by divorce on 28 August 1992.[6] On 27 March 2004, he married for a third time, Ulrika Thram.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_MacLeod_of_MacLeod

The procedures of divorce in Texas are unique and require the expertise of a lawyer who has practiced divorce law in Texas. While there are rare cases in which both spouses agree to the divorce and terms of the divorce without issue, most cases involve spouses who are trying to fight with each other over money, property, and custody of children. It is important to seek the help of an experienced Texas divorce lawyer when facing a difficult and time consuming divorce.
http://lawyer.laws.com/texas-divorce-lawyer

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2012-01-12 21:48:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Q. Since my ex-wife and I split up three years ago, she has refused to allow me to take our daughter, Emily, on holiday abroad. This year, my new partner and I plan to go to Spain and I really want Emily to come with us. I have always had Emily to stay every other weekend without issue and I don’t understand why this is a problem. We have never had to apply to court and I am concerned about the cost of doing so but presumably, my ex-wife can just continue to refuse indefinitely. Please help.
http://www.divorceaid.co.uk/legal/your-letters.htm

Eliminating anxiety your children feel due to a divorce is very important. Children must have support both during and after a divorce. There may be days when they are fine and handling the divorce without issue. If you can maintain open lines of communication with your children they will feel safer about approaching you with issues they are having with the divorce.
http://www.ncds.org.uk/cms/useful-articles/useful-articles/s...

Note: the both last links come from UK (not from Texas) and do treat divorce issues **with children**
Note from asker:
MacLeod: IMO "without Issue" means no children. Texas: IMO "wihtout issue" means keine Streitfragen.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Horst Huber (X) : "Without issue" is the word for genealogy. I'd use "descended" or if possible, just "No descendants".
2 hrs
Thank you!
Something went wrong...
21 hrs
Reference:

issue/issues + "covering all the bases"

The following link struck me as pertinent (and amusing) in the light of the discussion so far and Mary's original question of how to cover different eventualities.

Divorce
The issues that will be considered by the Court in a divorce action can be numerous and will vary from case to case. Usually the Court will address the following issues:
1.Grounds for termination of the marriage
2.Division of marital assets (real and personal property including bank accounts, pensions and retirement accounts)
3.Custody, visitation and support of any minor children born as issue of the marriage and/or adopted by the parties
4.Spousal support (alimony)
5.Division of liabilities (determination of responsibility for marital debts)
http://www.communitylegalaid.org/library/family/121-terminat...

I agree with the others who have said that "the marriage was without issue" would be appropriate for a formal legal document. The only question is whether this could be considered to cover adoption. Perhaps the more general phrase often also found "there were no children to the marriage" (cf. there was no issue to the marriage) would be suitable (and two answers along precisely those lines have indeed already been suggested).

Finally, I wonder if it is actually possible to provide any references that might convince those against the use of "without issue" here. Here is my attempt:

Queen Elizabeth I - A Historical Study
It is very probable that she believed she would be childless ; and a marriage without issue would necessitate a settlement of the succession.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3sXoMZatL48C&pg=PA77&dq="...

S. (Sabine) Baring-Gould - Germany: present and past
"When husband or wife died, the division and succession to property differed according to whether the marriage had been without issue (unbeerbte Ehie") or with issue (beerbte Ehe).
...
"When, however, marriage was with issue, laws were different.
By Cologne right all property went to the children,
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/s-sabine-baring-gould/...
Note from asker:
Alison, that's an absolutely wonderfully researched reference. Please enter "there were no children to the marriage" or "the marriage was without children" because it's by far the best wording for this legal document. THANKS!!
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Nicola Wood : Oh dear, the word "issue" seems to have become quite an issue in itself, doesn't it ;-) Great references by the way! Just finished reading Wolf Hall, so perhaps I am in an historical state of mind
19 mins
Thanks, Nicola. I take no issue with anything you have said in this discussion.
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search