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TRME
Université des Métiers
Aug 15, 2011 15:39
12 yrs ago
39 viewers *
French term

Historique

French to English Bus/Financial Business/Commerce (general)
France Telecom, l'opérateur historique dans le secteur des télécommunications.
I am not fully satisfied with "historical". Does anybody have a better idea or shall I stick to my first choice?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 oldest/longest-established
3 +5 longstanding
4 +2 traditional
4 +1 legacy (in this context)
4 +1 Historically, the oldest player in the field of ...
3 +1 well-established
4 premier
3 incumbent
3 longest-standing

Discussion

cc in nyc Aug 17, 2011:
@ polyglot A little late, but I only just saw our latest comment...
I like "original incumbent," although it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.
polyglot45 Aug 17, 2011:
I have often heard and seen "legacy" used this way - you can believe me or not. We have to beg to differ in the latter case....
I didn't want to cause confusion so I didn't mention earlier that I have even seen and heard "historical".....
But it is certainly not "long-standing" or "well-establshed" etc. The only other acceptable answer would be "original incumbent" If I had time I would do some research under "grandfather rights" which are part of the same concept
cc in nyc Aug 16, 2011:
One last time... In both BT webpages, the concern is the replacement of obsolescent – viz., legacy – equipment. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's the meaning of "historique" in the phrase "France Telecom, l'opérateur historique."
1/ "Measures must be taken to ensure that legacy operators such as BT provide sufficient time to allow replacement of affected equipment [...]"
2/ " Metronet wireless CCTV private circuits provide a simple replacement service that uses an industry standard IP communications channel with a media converter at each end to ensure compatibility with legacy RS1000 compatible hardware, an immediate migration path to state-of-the-art IP Viewing Platforms."
polyglot45 Aug 16, 2011:
plus which the term is used to describe the original operator, in other words, the one set up in illo tempore by the State as a national and monopoly operator (this applies also to transport and not just telecoms). They came deregulation/privatisation and the legacy operator had to compete with new rivals. But the legacy operator often still has a number of central functions, it being impossible to uproot everything and start from scratch. And legacy is UK too.
polyglot45 Aug 16, 2011:
two examples for British Telecom www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/ngndevelopments/responses/FCS.pdfYou +1'd this publicly. Undo
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Measures must be taken to ensure that legacy operators such as BT provide sufficient time to allow replacement of affected equipment by its owners and
.......
www.cctv-information.co.uk/i/Wireless_CCTV_by_Metronet - CachedYou +1'd this publicly. Undo
Metronet was also the first wireless IP operator in the UK to reach ... back up that is simply not forthcoming from BT and other legacy network operators. ...
cc in nyc Aug 16, 2011:
But more... It refers especially to the older type of service, so – IMO at least – "legacy [telephone] operator" might refer to a land-line operator with dial-tone service. ;-)
Joshua Wolfe Aug 16, 2011:
Difference between US and UK English, alors In US/North America, legacy is simply descriptive. But if this is for a UK audience, I concede my suggestion is inappropriate.
cc in nyc Aug 16, 2011:
legacy airline Check out the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_carrier
Note particularly that it refers to pre-deregulation airline companies and the older type of service they provide, not to their premier position (note particularly, Hawaiian and Alaskan Airlines). It also says the term is not-so-much used in this context outside the USA, where it is used "disparagingly."
Joshua Wolfe Aug 16, 2011:
legacy airline is quite common -- same idea For an example of this usage, see
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2009/04/the_high_cos...
cc in nyc Aug 16, 2011:
@ polyglot Can you cite a published example of this use of "legacy operator"?
polyglot45 Aug 16, 2011:
In the case of France Telecom Joshua is correct - it is the original and therefore legacy operator in France - have come across this often in interpreting
philgoddard Aug 15, 2011:
Kashew's Wikipedia article says it was created by privatising the state-owned PTT in 1988, and had a monopoly until 1998. Therefore, it's the oldest.
kashew Aug 15, 2011:
If I could have a second shot: I'd go for historique meaning "particularly important". Maybe "prime operator"?
Peter LEGUIE (asker) Aug 15, 2011:
Yes, the context is strictly French.
kashew Aug 15, 2011:
Was France Telecoms the first? http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_Télécom#Historique
Is the context worldwide or French, Peter?
philgoddard Aug 15, 2011:
Sure.
Peter LEGUIE (asker) Aug 15, 2011:
Thank you Phil. Would you also agree with "earliest (-established)" player?
philgoddard Aug 15, 2011:
I agree with you, Peter. In my opinion it means the oldest, and I'm posting it as an answer.
Evans (X) Aug 15, 2011:
While it's true there could be more than one longstanding player, BT is often referred to as the longstanding telecoms player in the UK. If you don't like longstanding, I think you could go for original.
Joshua Wolfe Aug 15, 2011:
Peter, I think that if you google things like legacy airlines and legacy telecommunications, you will find that legacy has just about the same connotation as the one you are trying to convey.
Peter LEGUIE (asker) Aug 15, 2011:
Yes, the idea is indeed to emphasize its position as "the first one". I do not feel that "longstanding" really means this: there may in fact be several "longstanding" players. Do you agree?
Evans (X) Aug 15, 2011:
I suppose you could also go with something like "original" here if you want to emphasise its position as the first one, although I still think longstanding covers the meaning adequately.
Peter LEGUIE (asker) Aug 15, 2011:
Ronald, would you go for "initially established" considering what I just added?
Peter LEGUIE (asker) Aug 15, 2011:
The exact meaning is the very first player in the sector, usually a state-owned monopoly.

Proposed translations

+2
2 hrs
Selected

oldest/longest-established

It looks like Gilla has the weight of opinion behind her, but for once I don't agree with her. I think describing France Telecom as "the longstanding telecoms player in France" sounds odd, and as Peter says in the discussion entries, it's a superlative - it means the oldest.
Peer comment(s):
agree kashew : But I would check dates for oldest and longest-established in the wiki article. Maybe safer to say just long-established.
1 hr
Thanks - the Wikipedia article says it's the oldest.
agree Yvonne Gallagher : prefer 2nd option
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank all of you for the trouble you went to. "
+5
2 mins

longstanding

I would go for something like longstanding or traditional in this context.
Peer comment(s):
agree Steven Jones : I think longstanding is a good translation in this context, although well-established is not bad either. I don't think that incumbent works well as it more typically applies to a supplier-customer relationship, e.g. XX are an incumbent supplier to YY.
12 mins
thanks, Steven. It's surprising really that there isn't a more exact word for this, but I think the meaning is clear.
agree Timothy Rake
19 mins
thanks, Timothy
agree Sheila Wilson
21 mins
thanks, Sheila
agree Sarah Bessioud : I also think original, as you mentioned in the discussion, is a good suggestion.
39 mins
Thanks, Jeux de Mots, I think original is perhaps the best option here.
agree AllegroTrans
48 mins
thanks, AT!
agree Verginia Ophof
4 hrs
Thanks Verginia
disagree cc in nyc : doesn't convey the distinction of being first // I take your point as well, but your Answer/Explanation was not "original or most longstanding" :-(
4 hrs
Take your point but I still think original or most longstanding would be fine here. Sure, I didn't translate the whole phrase, I tried to offer a useful word...
neutral Julie Barber : Hi Gilla, I think that traditional works well but not longstanding as it's not exactly what is means, it means more that they were the first and most prominent operator
1 day 20 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
6 mins

well-established

another possibility, adding a positive flavour
Peer comment(s):
agree Sarah Bessioud
35 mins
agree AllegroTrans
45 mins
disagree cc in nyc : This doesn't convey the distinction of being first
4 hrs
neutral philgoddard : Facebook is only seven years old, but most people would describe it as well established
5 hrs
neutral writeaway : with philgoddard and cc in nyc. this doesn't convey what the Fr means, certainly not in this context.
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
10 mins

incumbent

Peer comment(s):
disagree cc in nyc : "incumbent" = "current"; see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incumbent
3 hrs
neutral kashew : Maybe. As in a Linguee example: and to compete with the ***incumbent*** telecom operator. Anglais : eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUri...:0048
4 hrs
agree Marion Feildel (X) : http://www.itu.int/terminology/index.html http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?sourceoverride...
1 day 5 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
11 mins

legacy (in this context)

Google legacy +phone company and you will some websites that show this use of legacy in the tech world

See also Wikipedia article Legacy_system.
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_system

Peer comment(s):
disagree cc in nyc : "legacy" refers to old technology; in this context perhaps providers of dial-tone telephone communications and/or dial-up services
4 hrs
agree polyglot45 : stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/778516/.../Sky.pdfFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View - BT is the UK's legacy operator as France Telecom is in France
15 hrs
agree philgoddard : I hadn't come across it in a non-disparaging context, but it's clearly OK.
1 day 23 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
3 hrs

Historically, the oldest player in the field of ...

I would reword the sentence a bit - like that. This allows to keep the word, the meaning and make the sentence look more natural.
Peer comment(s):
agree ACOZ (X) : I like this way of keeping the "historical" sense with the meaning of "oldest".
6 hrs
Thank you.
Something went wrong...
+2
4 hrs

traditional

*
Peer comment(s):
neutral cc in nyc : doesn't convey the distinction of being first // C'est peut-être possible, mais à mon avis toujours un peu difficile avec "dans le secteur des télécommunications" .... Qu'en faire? "telephone industry"?? Moi, je n'aime pas.
9 mins
NB: Pour répondre à une directive européenne de mise en concurrence des services de télécommunication (téléphonie fixe principalement), la Direction générale des télécommunications devient France Télécom le 1er janvier 1988.
agree polyglot45 : stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/778516/.../Sky.pdfFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
11 hrs
Thanks: v interesting one to translate - like "classique" - with traditional it can be unclear in EN too!
agree Julie Barber : I'm clicking for the dog, I want one! I think that traditional does convey the first and most people would know the context
20 hrs
Thanks - she's called Zoé.
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

premier

To yield: "France Telecom, [France's] premier operator in the telecommunications sector"

Dictionary reference:
pre·mier   
–adjective
3. first in rank; chief; leading.
4. first in time; earliest; oldest.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/premier

Reference:

France Telecom Rediscovers France
[...]
Although network operators like France Telecom [...] and Vodafone [...] have trumpeted their forays into high-growth emerging markets, especially at a time when Western European appears saturated and stagnant, France's premier operator reported stronger profitability thanks to French broadband users and a pick-up for its British and Spanish mobile businesses.


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Note added at 4 hrs (2011-08-15 20:14:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hers's the link for the Forbes' article cited above:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/02/06/france-telecom-europe-marke...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Julie Barber : You can't use premier to mean both first and leading, wrapped up as one word it doesn't really work. If I read this I would only think of leading
19 hrs
I'm not sure I know that rule. But thank you for your comments, in any case.
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

longest-standing

......longest-standing player in the experience business.
http://www.acorne.co.uk/

This would have been a discussion entry if I could have solved my computer problem!

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Note added at 4 hrs (2011-08-15 20:16:28 GMT)
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Pickfords Business Moving is the largest and longest standing player in the corporate business relocation and office removals sector
http://www.teacrate.com/news_story/09-06-11/pickfords_busine...
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