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ordonnancement pilotage chantier
Jun 14, 2011 10:38
13 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

tourner autour d'un oxymore

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting sculpture
A sculptor writes: "Ces dernières années, j’ai beaucoup tourné autour d'un oxymore, celui du fleuve et de la stèle associés dans une même image."
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 A recurring theme of my work [in recent years] has been the apparent contradiction of...
3 +2 my work has revolved around an oxymoron
4 I have concentrated on (focussed on) an oxymoronic idea
3 +1 toying with an oxymoron
3 obsessed by the oxymoron of .....
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): cc in nyc

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Discussion

kashew (asker) Jun 15, 2011:
@Mike B Hadn't thought of that - excellent. Why not post a whole phrase?
Mike Birch Jun 14, 2011:
If you really don't like "oxymoron"... How about "dichotomy"?
kashew (asker) Jun 14, 2011:
Oxymoron Definition and list http://www.oxymoronlist.com/
I'm actively looking for an alternative to oxymoron or oxymoronic, as I tend to agree with DV - it's a questionable use of the word here.
David Vaughn Jun 14, 2011:
celui du fleuve et de la stèle associés "celui du fleuve et de la stèle associés dans une même image."

I see no contradiction in ***associating*** contrasting elements in one work. Oxymore would be possibly correct as a metaphor if these elements were not "associated" but instead simultaneously applied to a single element in the sculpture.

But you still have the problem of the word oxymore, which is used in rhetoric (and only in rhetoric in my experience) to deal with an apparently contradictory fusion, whereas using contrast in art is extremely normal. And since the elements here are far removed from one another, they contain none of the resemblance that is most often present in the rhetorical use of oxymoron.

Perhaps the author has taken these things and others into consideration. But I tend to think it is simply sloppy use of vocabulary. Likely because it "sounds" intelligent. Obviously my reflection as a translator doesn't stop there.
David Vaughn Jun 14, 2011:
Helen I wasn't attributing any point of view to you personally, and basically agree with your last comment. Your points of view always make me think, and I consider that one of the advantages of a site like this one.

But I collaborate with artists. I try to help them with their text communication. I won't turn them down because they don't know what they are doing. Some admit it. Some have inflated egotistical ideas of their greatness in any endeavor. Most have interesting ideas that often need to be better expressed. I can no longer count the number of times that artists have changed their original texts because they see that my translation works better - even in the original language. Other times I miss something essential that I should have seen. Sometimes no one saw it, and the original text gets altered. The thing for me is that translators are often too timid (thus perhaps the need to let off steam in another forum), and it is the author and the text who is cheated. The problem is increased when the translator doesn't have direct access to the author.
Helen Shiner Jun 14, 2011:
David I agree with every word you say, except where you claim that I am unwilling to accept that authors are not perfect. I believe a translator should at least try first and foremost to be faithful to a text, rather than to dismiss it being incorrect in its meaning just because he/she does not happen to understand it. If a text is rubbish, turn it down rather than criticising it pubicly.
David Vaughn Jun 14, 2011:
oxymoron Yes, perhaps the author is consciously using "oxymoron" as a metaphor.

Yes, translation is an art, and there is obviously no such thing as a direct translation. It is always interpretation. For myself, I refuse to do translations if I don't know what and who a text is "for".

Yes, there are many bad translations out there. But if you are unwilling to accept that authors are not perfect, that meaning in the original text is often approximation - as many of the world's greatest writers have insisted - then you are being faithful not to the essence of the text (which will depend on form, function, audience, culture, etc, etc), but to its shortcomings. There is no perfect translation, but neither are there perfect texts.
Helen Shiner Jun 14, 2011:
Public forum This is a public forum and the author is just as likely to land here as anyone else in the world. Who are we to know (as posters) to whom this text is addressed? And to suggest we know better than the author about what he/she wants to say/convey is just arrogant, I'm afraid. Yes, make suggestions, by all means - I'm sure all good translators do this, but I am so tired of reading/proofreading translations of arts texts where the translator has altered everything and has ended up emptying the text of meaning (not directed at anyone on this forum to my knowledge). In fact, this was why I was asked to become a translator in the first place.
And the oxymoron is in the sculpture itself which, as the author says, combines the apparent contradiction of a flowing stele. The oxymoron is not conveyed in written language, but in the visual language of the sculpture.
David Vaughn Jun 14, 2011:
oxymoron is not a synonym for contradiction Oxford:

"oxymoron |ˌäksəˈmôrˌän|
noun
a ***figure of speech*** in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true)."

"figure of speech a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage : calling her a crab is just a figure of speech."
David Vaughn Jun 14, 2011:
writers The fact is that the better a writer is, the greater the chances they have an editor - or several. With these kinds of texts written by artists, the translator is sometimes the only writing professional who sees a text before it is "published". Yes, I always assume someone says things in a certain way for a reason. But I also know some artists write ONLY by obligation, and hate every word of it. Others like to wax poetic, sometimes with much too much liberty in regards to the "purpose" of the texts. But fact is, we are often dealing with amateurs.

An arts critic writing in specialized vocabulary for Art Press is another story. But artists often do weak imitations of art speak.

As for translators "letting off steam" with colleagues, I'd hesitate to think it really represents any disrespect.

I'm afraid I don't see an obvious difference between materials as an oxymoron. Is a chair made of metal and plastic an oxymoron?
Lara Barnett Jun 14, 2011:
As Helen says "There is a distinct contradiction between the flowing nature of a river and the static, upright nature of a stele." This however is not obvious to everyone, which is why, (although as David says "there is an English word that is about as close a synonym for the French as you can find."), I have suggested "oxymoronic idea", to refer to the contradiction found the idea of the river and the stele. i.e. because using the word "oxymoron" alone has escaped one English person.
Helen Shiner Jun 14, 2011:
Oxymoron I think the sentence makes it entirely plain where the oxymoron is. There is a distinct contradiction between the flowing nature of a river and the static, upright nature of a stele. My objection is to the very often repeated (on this Kudoz forum) whingeing by people who are translating texts relating to the arts or those offering suggestions. I don't see this whingeing in any other field here, nor can it be said that people who write about any other subject are any better or worse at conveying their ideas. I find it very disrespectful actually and more indicative of the kind of person who makes such comments. David, I agree that one can make suggestions to an author if something is downright wrong, and there is nothing like having your text translated for really seeing what you have written!!
David Vaughn Jun 14, 2011:
arts It has nothing to do with arts. That's what I do & enjoy doing. But where is the oxymoron here? I don't think the author understands the word he is using. Here we are lucky because there is an English word that is about as close a synonym for the French as you can find. The question is, do you try to say something that makes the author sound a bit more intelligent, or do you "respect" his limitations. Perhaps he is using the word "poetically" and understands the contradiction in its usage. The translator who has access to the entire text can better judge that. But this is indeed a question that often presents itself in texts that are not written by people who have made their way as writers. I often point out these things to my "authors", and they often change their texts. Few people want to sound like idiots. Assuming that a "writer" who is not a writer knows what they are doing is not being fair with your author.
Lara Barnett Jun 14, 2011:
Helen is right. I enjoy these arty texts and wish someone would give them to me. There is actually a meaning to every word, it is important to find which adjectives and "oxymoronic ideas" are referring to which word/phrase. I have used "oxymoronic idea" because it might shine a bit more light for the reader as it is quite abstract and French language can take the height of all the abstract/lofty language a bit better than English - but that does not mean there is no meaning to it.
Helen Shiner Jun 14, 2011:
Oxymoron I also think it best to stick close to this author's use of words. They mean something important to him and his intended audience, presumably.
Lara Barnett Jun 14, 2011:
Oxymoron I do think it is best to stick to the original word where there is a direct equivalent which holds the same nuance and meaning.
David Vaughn Jun 14, 2011:
Contradiction Yeah, keep the "BHL on rye" idea, with lots of mayonnaise. Using oxymoron to describe the contrast (and not contradiction) fleuve and stele together may be more Oxycontin than anything else. That said, his work may be better than his words.
kashew (asker) Jun 14, 2011:
Luc Ferry has time on his hands - I might send him a few arty-farty philosophical questions.
Bourth (X) Jun 14, 2011:
If you ask me, the way this guy presents his "concept" makes HIM look like a moron, one of those people who, having latched on to a new, preferably 'big' word that sounds sexy and intellectual at the same time--a bit like BHL and Arielle Dombasle rolled into one--, insist on throwing it 'casually' into every conversation. Therefore I'm in favour of keeping "oxymoron" in there, to underscore this fact, even if/because it sounds ridiculous.

Proposed translations

+2
15 mins
Selected

A recurring theme of my work [in recent years] has been the apparent contradiction of...

My shot, for what it's worth!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2011-06-14 10:54:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or
"My work [in recent years] has largely focused on/been centred on..."
Note from asker:
I'm beginning to home in on your apparent contradiction/incompatibility thread.
Peer comment(s):
agree Mark Nathan
1 hr
Thanks!
agree Bourth (X) : Stylistically excellent, but I fear it does not present the sculptor as the sham I suspect he is. I mean, like, wow, standing stones and water, crikey, what insight into post-modern existentialist urban mythology!
3 hrs
Many thanks! And yes, I agree that the original sounds highly pretentious! The "oxy" would certainly appear to be optional!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+2
3 mins

my work has revolved around an oxymoron

I think it would sound strange to say "I have revolved around an oxymoron."
Note from asker:
Yes, that would be completely nutty!
"I have revolved around an oxymoron" was what I was referring to, not "my WORK has revolved around an oxymoron".
Peer comment(s):
agree Yolanda Broad : Good straightforward solution
5 hrs
Thanks Yolanda!
agree Helen Shiner : And I don't think it is nutty, just saying it like it is. Art in all media deals with tension, contrast, oppositions and the like.
7 hrs
Thanks Helen!
Something went wrong...
8 mins

obsessed by the oxymoron of .....

my take

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 mins (2011-06-14 10:47:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or the oxymoron has haunted me
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

I have concentrated on (focussed on) an oxymoronic idea

I'd like to keep the actual "oxymoron" word itself, as it translates directly between the two languages and this way more respect can be kept for the source text. However, I have changed construction to "oxymoronic idea" to emphasise the abstract quality, which is better conveyed in French than in English.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2011-06-14 14:43:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Concentrate"
I prefer this verb to my other option (focus) as its root suggests the circling idea of going around ("tourné autour").
Note from asker:
What about this? In the last few years I have had an oxymoronic idea running around in my brain. ;-)
Something went wrong...
+1
5 hrs

toying with an oxymoron

Artists and writers are forever "toying with" ideas and themes, like cats with mice.
It seems more idiomatic than a literal translation involving the notion of "turning" or "circling".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day39 mins (2011-06-15 11:17:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Following discussion, at Kashew's instigation, I'll modify to:

"toying with a dichotomy"
Note from asker:
Toying is a good verb, thanks.
Peer comment(s):
agree emiledgar
1 day 1 hr
Something went wrong...
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