Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

Tangentialtor

English translation:

gate formed by overlapping ramparts

Added to glossary by Wendy Streitparth
This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Mar 5, 2011 11:50
13 yrs ago
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German term

Tangentialtor

German to English Science Archaeology Celtic settlements
Here it is separately: Part of the description of a gateway into a Celtic settlement.

Im Süden war der Zugang zum ... Oppidum durch einen Abschnittswall mit Tangentialtor befestigt.
Change log

Mar 6, 2011 19:17: Steffen Walter changed "Field" from "Other" to "Science"

Mar 16, 2011 21:39: Wendy Streitparth Created KOG entry

Discussion

Wendy Streitparth (asker) Mar 16, 2011:
The client decided he wanted "gate formed by overlapping ramparts", which cropped up among other terms in Orla's reference. Thanks to everybody for their participation.
oa_xxx (X) Mar 10, 2011:
am curious to see what you and your client decided to use in the end! Zangentor seemed solvable but this tangential one was difficult, and the descriptions in the links from Jeanie and Adam were both quite different - to confuse matters more I just discovered this reference, maybe you saw it before: http://halai.arts.cornell.edu/wwwroot/chelp/reports/McFadden...
See pg. 9, 10 & 66 the only reference in an archeological text that I found that refers to tangential gate (other than Jeanies link). The term axial gate on pg. 9 seems closer to the description in Adams link!! Very confusing! (PS Has anyone ever heard of "Lesbian masonry"?! (pg 10 of pdf!)) Hope it all worked out anyway!
Wendy Streitparth (asker) Mar 10, 2011:
Sorry to be so long in deciding: am awaiting confirmation from client who is away till Monday.

Proposed translations

16 mins

chicane gate

Declined
This might be the case as I have already said in your double question. The French being 'porte en chicane'. Please see my refs for the previous question.



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Note added at 45 mins (2011-03-05 12:36:06 GMT)
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Oh well, I've spent rather too much time doing research for you this morning, so will have to wish you well and leave you to it.

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Note added at 52 mins (2011-03-05 12:42:45 GMT)
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Last thought: staggered entrance

The site area lies at the south-western edge of a large field just to the north of Bunkle Edge,
Berwickshire (illus 1). The earthworks included a sub-rectangular enclosure of about two hectares
which partially surrounded the Marygoldhill east fort, and a linear feature composed of a line of pits
and a flanking bank running north-westwards from the enclosure (NGR NT 8044 6049 to 8024 6070).
This incorporated a putative gateway (NT 8036 6057) with a staggered entrance (Site 2) (illus 2). The
enclosure was defined by a continuous double bank and medial ditch which converged with the linear
earthwork at the west corner (NT 8044 6049) (Site 1) (illus 3,4).
http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/PSAS_2...

The site is defined by a double-ditch system, roughly square in outline with rounded corners, bowed-out sides on the north and west, and an entrance on the east defined by a staggered break in the defensive ditches; the gap in the inner ditch being displaced to the south, that in the outer ditch to the north. The enclosure measures 285 feet from north to south by 260 ft. east-west (c.87 x 79 m) within the ditches, giving an occupation area of almost 1¾ acres (c.0.7 ha). No trace of a rampart was found in position. The ditches were found upon excavation to be of regular V-profile but varying somewhat in both width and depth; the inner ditch varied between 14½ to 8 feet in width (c.4.1 to 2.4 m) and between 6 to 4½ feet in depth (c.1.8 to 1.4 m), the outer between 9 to 6 feet in width (c.2.7 - 1.8 m) and 4 to 2 feet (c.1.2 - 0.6 m) in depth.

The original excavators classified this site "as a fort rather than a semi-permanent camp" (BAS Trans. 1944 p.12), in view of its double, V-profile ditches and approximately rectangular outline. This was a reasonable assumption for the time, but now, however, as more and more examples of Roman military works have come to light, the site is known to display quite un-military characteristics; bowed-out or irregularly-proportioned defences are sometimes seen in the larger temporary camps but are very rarely seen in permanent works, the 'staggered' entrance is also very rare in the earlier works but are known in the 3rd century on the Devon coast (e.g. at Countisbury), the great variations in construction quality of the defensive ditches is not suggestive of the Roman military mindset, and the finds, particularly the metalwork, also seem more indicative of a domestic rather than a military occupation.
http://www.roman-britain.org/places/shenstone.htm
Note from asker:
Thanks, but can't help feeling this expression is too modern.
Peer comment(s):

neutral adamgajlewicz : It's a little more complicated http://www.duensberg.de/duensberg.html
2 hrs
No, that is not more complicated. It is exactly as described by a chicane.
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

Tangential gate

Declined
It seems like a literal translation but this is what I found in a historical encyclopedia:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f899xH_quaMC&pg=PA818&lpg...
Note from asker:
Thanks, Jeanie
Peer comment(s):

neutral Helen Shiner : The problem with this is that is the only such ref on the internet relating to this sort of context. It's a difficult one.
19 mins
Something went wrong...
9 hrs

Dog-legged gate

Declined
I seem to recall my Arch Prof. using the phrase on a dig back in my Dark Ages. I cannot give any further info. Sorry
Note from asker:
Now thats something quite different. Thank you.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

14 hrs
Reference:

dont think you'll find an exact term - heres another link

you might well have come across already :)

I dont think dog-legged fits here, perhaps better with entrance than gate, would prefer something like staggered as suggested above, or maybe offset or oblique?

simple gaps; inturned ramparts; offset ramparts; oblique approaches; guardrooms; hornworks; and outworks.

On a number of large multivallate hillforts oblique approaches to these forms of entrance are created, either by overlapping outer ramparts, or by the construction of hornworks and outworks.

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Note added at 14 hrs (2011-03-06 02:26:42 GMT)
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(all examples are from this website, scroll down a bit ;)

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Note added at 14 hrs (2011-03-06 02:39:56 GMT)
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Maybe dog-legged works afterall, hard one, would go more for a description than a term though...

Dog-legged - With right-angle bends.

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Note added at 15 hrs (2011-03-06 03:17:26 GMT)
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http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/a-hadrian-arthur-hadri...
Example sentence:

Some large multivallate hillforts were entered through two sets of gates. At Danebury, for example, a second gate was located adjacent to the outer ditch.

Outworks are usually placed centrally across the main access route, creating a staggered and dual approach to the entrance.

Note from asker:
Thank you very much - your reference made very interesting reading
Many thanks Orla - the client plumped for "gate formed by overlapping rampart"
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Helen Shiner : Agree with staggered (well I would!) but not dog-legged, that seems more of an on-the-hoof kind of term or a layman's description. I think this is one more occasion where there is an explicit term in GER but not necessarily in EN.
9 hrs
Something went wrong...
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