This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
panama
sous forme sociale

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

feu M. un Tel

English translation:

the late Joe Bloggs, deceased

Added to glossary by SJLD
Mar 15, 2009 21:20
15 yrs ago
French term

desseins de feu

Non-PRO French to English Social Sciences General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters cartography
J'ai suivi les desseins de feu de M. Jean Bleau.

This is from a text in old French regarding the preparation of a book of maps in the 17th century. The plates are engravings. I have found many references in Google to "desseins de feu" and "dessins de feu" but no explanation of what it actually means. I wondered if it could be "etching", as the "eau-forte" burns like fire, but so far I have found nothing. Any suggestions would be gratefully received.
Proposed translations (English)
5 +5 feu = deceased
4 -2 phirogravure (fire-engraving)
Change log

Mar 15, 2009 23:04: writeaway changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Social Sciences" , "Field (specific)" from "Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters"

Mar 16, 2009 07:05: SJLD changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/126510">Shar1's</a> old entry - "feu M. un Tel"" to ""feu = deceased""

Mar 16, 2009 08:08: Michele Fauble changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (2): writeaway, SJLD

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:

An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)

A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).

Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.

When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.

* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.

Discussion

Martin Cassell Mar 16, 2009:
Jim, Occam says it's simply "of the late M. Untel", as SJLD suggested.
It's late over here. Enough.
Jim Tucker (X) Mar 16, 2009:
or here again, e.g. "quant a l'autel , il
presentait une disposition tres-remarquable, disposition que nous repro-
duisons dans la gravure (fig. 8), d'apres un dessin de feu Garnerey"
Jim Tucker (X) Mar 15, 2009:
The simple explanation would be to take it as an imagemaking process, given the context and frequency. Do we even have a concrete parallel for the other?
Martin Cassell Mar 15, 2009:
Jim, point taken but I think we've been chasing red geese or wild herrings or whatever, simply because of the asker's own "scribal error". You yourself invoked Occam's Razor: let's go for the simple explanation!
Jim Tucker (X) Mar 15, 2009:
Martin, that is precisely the point I hoped to be making. On the other hand, many attestations (like the last one I cited about Watteau) suggest the phrase is a real technique, and not an idiom. The null genitive in any case survives even now vestigially.
Martin Cassell Mar 15, 2009:
Jim, I don't think it's strictly speaking Old French, nor even Middle French; from the scrap given, looks more like early Modern, so considerations of oblique case for genitive shouldn't arise.
Jim Tucker (X) Mar 15, 2009:
You'll have to explain something like this then: Oeuvres des estampes gravées d'après les tableaux et dessins de feu Antoine Watteau.
Non-ProZ.com Mar 15, 2009:
No, the second "de" was my mistake. I have rechecked the original text. As the text speaks constanty about designs, plates, etc. I wrongly assumed that "dessin/dessein de feu" must be a type of design or part of a design/printing process. SJLD's answer makes perfect sense for my text. Thanks to all who have contributed.
Jim Tucker (X) Mar 15, 2009:
I fear you closed this too early. The "de" can be omitted in OF; this does not change the meaning. ("le fiz sainte Marie" for le fils de sainte M.).
Shar1 (asker) Mar 15, 2009:
Yes, you're right, the second "de" shouldn't be there. It was a case of seeing what I expected to see and not what I saw...
Martin Cassell Mar 15, 2009:
Two likeliest cases: (a) original contains 'de feu de' -- asker may wish to proceed on the _explicit_ assumption that this is a error (dittography); (b) the dittography was introduced by the asker -- the wild geese can go back to roost.
Jim Tucker (X) Mar 15, 2009:
"this" = the (only) putative missing "de"
Jim Tucker (X) Mar 15, 2009:
... but this is allowable in 18th-c Fr, and should not be distracting ("Le bâtiment fut construit sur le dessein de feu M. Roman"; "Cette décoration ...étoit du dessein de feu M. Gabriel, premier architecte du Roi")
Jim Tucker (X) Mar 15, 2009:
Agree w Martin that this is likely a dittography.
Martin Cassell Mar 15, 2009:
The sentence as you have given in creates ambiguities (as you will see by the answers so far). Please confirm the orthography.
Are there any other occurrences of the term elsewhere in the text which might throw some light?
Martin Cassell Mar 15, 2009:
Definitely "de feu de ..." (i.e. 2x "de") ?

Proposed translations

+5
12 mins
Selected

feu = deceased

Work List - DIGMAP - [ Translate this page ]... Mantoue, la principauté de Trente, les republiques de Venise, de Lucques, et le grand duché de Toscane: sur les desseins de feu monsieur Jean Bleau, ...
portal.digmap.eu/index/geral/date/EN/1724.html

Means M. Bleau is no longer among us.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 mins (2009-03-15 21:34:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the late Mr Bleau...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2009-03-15 21:47:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And it's probably Joan Blaeu. Maps.
http://www.oldprintshop.com/cgi-bin/gallery.pl?action=browse...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 28 mins (2009-03-15 21:49:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Nouveau theatre d'Italie, ou description (Open Library)By statement: sur les desseins de feu monsieur Jean Blaeu. Language: French. Pagination: 4 v :. description. [ edit ]. Table of contents ...
openlibrary.org/b/OL16355768M - 8k - Cached - Similar pages
Nova Vulterrae delineatio [cartographic material] : Volterre ...sur les desseins de feu Monsieur Jean Blaeu ... le tout mis en ordre par Pierre Mortier librairie, 1704. Also available in an electronic version via the ...
nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn2258267
Peer comment(s):
agree Martin Cassell : I would agree for "de feu ~~~", but you would need to be sure that "de feu de ~~~", as given, is definitely an error // OK, now that asker has clarified, I agree of course!
19 mins
I'm sure :-)
agree Helen Shiner : with the extra 'de' removed, I think you are very probably right!
1 hr
thanks Helen :-)
agree writeaway : yeah, only 4,420 Ghit for "de feu de M." . don't understand the problem here -context is clear and in any case it's in the dicos and has been asked before.
1 hr
yes, nul besoin de sortir son Latin ;-)
agree Jean-Louis S.
6 hrs
thanks jlsjr!
agree Jim Tucker (X) : (sorry)
24 days
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Many thanks for your (speedy) help. All is now clear."
-2
18 mins

phirogravure (fire-engraving)

This is a process which is more commonly done on wood, but the "pyrograveur" can also be used on canvas. The second link below is a shopping link for a "pyrograveur" for "dessins et peintures."

*please correct the spelling of the French phrase to "dessins de feu"
Reference:

http://www.buziosturismo.com/saudimap/frames1.htm

http://fr.shopping.com/xPO-Toys-FR-Pyrograveur-Dessins-Et-Peintures-Partner

Peer comment(s):
disagree Jim Tucker (X) : Pyrogravure requires electricity and was invented only in the late 19th century; "dessin" and "dessein" are originally the same word and only diverge in the 18th century // "feu" = deceased
10 mins
From the context, this still looks like a technique to me.
disagree rkillings : eau forte = nitric acid solution; no fire involved.
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search