| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Outraged by the use of the KudoZ system by some people Thread poster: Ángel Domínguez
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Marina Soldati 
Argentina
Local time: 19:10
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| No, you can`t | Jun 13, 2008 |
Arturo Delgado wrote:
One option is not to answer those questions. Ignore them.
A better option (in my opinion) is to answer the question with...
"You can find that in the dictionary"
"Do a little more research, you can do it"
"Need you to send more context/explanation to be able to help you"
Also, we could write to the answerer (by selecting "disagree" and writing a comment:
"disagree with helping with extremely easy questions"
"disagree. Shouldn't we have more context?"
We tell these people our opinion/outrage/etc about this kind of questions, and we still get some points for "collaboration"!!!!!
If you post such comments to the asker or answerer you could be "banned" from answering questions, or even from using the site. It´s related to some Kudoz rule.
Of course, askers writing in their context something along the lines of "HERE`S YOUR FAMOUS CONTEXT" (yes, in capitals and in Spanish it was "Y AQUÍ TIENEN SU FAMOSO CONTEXTO") continue asking as many questions as they can.
So, do as I do, filter them.
Nice weekend to you all!
Marina
| | | | liz askew
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:10
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
| Once a bad translator, always a bad translator | Jun 13, 2008 |
There's "always one", just like in every walk of life, and we all have to deal with them the best we can...sometimes I get annoyed, other times it amuses me, I could go on....Occasionally I make a comment. But does it make any difference? No. C'est la vie!
Liz Askew
| | | | | Think positively, think what you can get out of it. | Jun 13, 2008 |
I do find it incredibly annoying when people put up a couple of words with no context. Reminds me of the bad old days when I was at the mercy of agencies and the secretary would pass on a request for a term or half a phrase from a client, whom I wasn't allowed to speak to directly.
What I want to see is as much of the surrounding source text as possible with a couple of asterisks around the term.
I could of course read the newspaper or do crosswords. Nobody is forcing me to do... See more I do find it incredibly annoying when people put up a couple of words with no context. Reminds me of the bad old days when I was at the mercy of agencies and the secretary would pass on a request for a term or half a phrase from a client, whom I wasn't allowed to speak to directly.
What I want to see is as much of the surrounding source text as possible with a couple of asterisks around the term.
I could of course read the newspaper or do crosswords. Nobody is forcing me to do Kudoz. I like cryptic crosswords and these no context terms are just like that, with a difference. When I do them, I'm honing my research and translating skills. Also while the asker may be a rookie (I'm trying to be kind) some of my colleagues are not and their answers can be quite useful.
There again, I have seen people put up difficult terms with zero context and many colleagues have asked for more and complained, while I just posted the answer, because I knew it.
Having said that. A real hard rule which says at least ten words of surrounding source text either side of the text or as much as there is if there is less would be a boon. Obviously in cases where that context is missing, then the asker has to say so. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 16:10
English to Spanish
+ ...
In memoriam | Hoping that people will learn | Jun 13, 2008 |
I probably use the word CONTEXT (all caps) as often or more than the questions I answer, and I answer a lot. By doing so my hope is that people will learn the importance of CONTEXT as opposed to words, because we do not translate words but IDEAS, and these words live in a context that has to be known before we can positively pin down the idea being expressed.
Having learned how to translate without the benefit of any specific academic training in the field myself, I realize that the... See more I probably use the word CONTEXT (all caps) as often or more than the questions I answer, and I answer a lot. By doing so my hope is that people will learn the importance of CONTEXT as opposed to words, because we do not translate words but IDEAS, and these words live in a context that has to be known before we can positively pin down the idea being expressed.
Having learned how to translate without the benefit of any specific academic training in the field myself, I realize that there must be numerous people out there who are in the same boat. If they are just starting out, then they should do so in a spirit of being open to learning. Even if they do have specific education in the field, they still need to be just as open, because their educational experience may not have included all the tools they need.
Consideration of context with all ramifications thereof (there are many, some unsuspected) and the use of research skills (also quite varied) can go a long way in making accomplished translators out of novices. It all depends on how willing each individual is to be receptive to learning and applying what they pick up along the way.
Still, this is the Net, so some out there might be interested in learning how to fish, while others are just looking for a handout. ▲ Collapse
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Joan Berglund
United States
Local time: 18:10
Member (2008)
French to English
| glad I never asked why they couldn't buy a dictionary | Jun 13, 2008 |
Because I certainly thought it a few times.
2.1 KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources available include the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines, etc. If translations are found elsewhere and the decision to post a KudoZ question is made nevertheless, information found elsewhere should be included, along with an explanation of what further information is sought.
3.7 Commentary on askers or answerers, and their postings or decisions to post, is not allowed. Comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question or answer, grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited (whether posted publicly, made directly to the person in question, or made to another site user).
[Edited at 2008-06-13 15:05]
You would think some sense of professional pride/personal embarrassment would impel people to voluntarily follow 2.1 but apparently not. Whatever happened to shame as a moderator of social conduct anyway? It seems to have fallen by the wayside -- I blame reality TV. Since it was brought up, I do think there would be some benefit to eliminating the point system. This would go a long way toward getting rid of people too cheap to buy their own dictionaries and the "point hogs" who cater to them, and make room for people who genuinely wanted to help each other with more complicated translation issues.
[Edited at 2008-06-13 20:06]
| | | | JPW (X)
Local time: 23:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
Make the asking of KudoZ questions open to members only; and then
Allow non-members, esp. those who create a profile just to ask questions, able to search the termbases, but nothing else. That would teach them to research a bit better perhaps.
I've seen some daft stuff posted too.
And I've also seen people who claim, in some cases, almost decades of transl. exp... See more Make the asking of KudoZ questions open to members only; and then
Allow non-members, esp. those who create a profile just to ask questions, able to search the termbases, but nothing else. That would teach them to research a bit better perhaps.
I've seen some daft stuff posted too.
And I've also seen people who claim, in some cases, almost decades of transl. experience on their profiles (yes, I do look) who clearly haven't a buck notion.
I hope they read this forum.
And I'm glad I refrained too. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Juliana Brown
Israel
Local time: 18:10
Member (2007)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| One of the best laughs I've had | Jun 13, 2008 |
[quote]Henry Hinds wrote:
I probably use the word CONTEXT (all caps) as often or more than the questions I answer, and I answer a lot. By doing so my hope is that people will learn the importance of CONTEXT as opposed to words, because we do not translate words but IDEAS, and these words live in a context that has to be known before we can positively pin down the idea being expressed.
/quote]
occurred following a polite and appropriate request for context (the KudoZ question was one lonely word in a sea of nothing), when the generous asker replied "It's a poem". Thanks for playing! My stomach was sore for hours...:P
| | | | | Users without a profile | Jun 13, 2008 |
John Paul Weir wrote:
Allow non-members, esp. those who create a profile just to ask questions, able to search the termbases, but nothing else.
Quite frankly, I often see Users with absolutely no information about them other than their nickname, and doing a lot of things here. Several of them posted their WWA = 1 on the Blue Board, and the insulted outsourcers asked them something like "Who are you, and what have you done for us - if anything - that we didn't pay for?". They are very slowly turning some areas of Proz into a no man's land.
Of course, Proz growth depends on people who try it for free, and eventually decide to purchase the whole package... or not. I was here for some five years before I saw a benefit in becoming a member, yet a partial one. But my profile was relatively complete.
I'd let these Users stay incognito for a month, then give them three e-mail warnings to complete at least half of their profile (or some selected fields) during the second month. If they fail to do it, they should have their profile automatically deleted. No need to block their IP or e-mail address, nothing violent like that. Just don't let them (nor anyone else) use the same nickname again. They'll grow tired of changing identities.
Please don't get me wrong, I'd let free Users stay on Proz for their lives if they want, but no longer than two months "undercover".
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Marina Soldati
Argentina
Local time: 19:10
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Don´t think so | Jun 13, 2008 |
John Paul Weir wrote: Make the asking of KudoZ questions open to members only; and then Allow non-members, esp. those who create a profile just to ask questions, able to search the termbases, but nothing else. That would teach them to research a bit better perhaps. I've seen some daft stuff posted too. And I've also seen people who claim, in some cases, almost decades of transl. experience on their profiles (yes, I do look) who clearly haven't a buck notion. I hope they read this forum. And I'm glad I refrained too.
If only members can ask Kudoz questions, it´s just a question of money. How much will it cost them to ask 60 questions a week, USD 150 a year? It´s no much if you can accept whatever job you are offered.
Besides, there are valuable colleagues who have opted not to be members, but have contributed extensively to the Kudoz glossaries. Would they be banned from asking just because they have chosen not to pay. I don´t think that`s fair.
Removing Kudoz points won´t be a solution either. They are used to sort the directories, so, if they no longer exist, the staff will have to find another way of sorting members, which may be even more unfair.
I think the solution is to filter whoever asks questions which are easily found in a dictionary, or doesn´t provide context, or whatever criteria you choose. If their questions are not answered, maybe they stop posting them, maybe not.
Marina
[Edited at 2008-06-13 21:00]
| | | | Nesrin
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:10
English to Arabic
+ ...
| Agree agree agree | Jun 13, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I'd let free Users stay on Proz for their lives if they want, but no longer than two months "undercover".
I know this is off-topic but I can't say how much I agree. It appears from previous discussions that there is a general consensus among Proz staff against the idea though.
[Edited at 2008-06-13 21:08]
| | | | JPW (X)
Local time: 23:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
| But I do think so... | Jun 13, 2008 |
If only members can ask KudoZ questions, it´s just a question of money. How much will it cost them to ask 60 questions a week, USD 150 a year? It´s no much if you can accept whatever job you are offered.
There is much more to Proz.com (a great site BTW) than just KudoZ, there are plenty of members-only features on this site - no pay, no access.
People use this site for all sorts of reasons: networking, finding jobs, earning points (what can you do with them anyway?), and especially the Blue Board.
I haven't seen the one half of this site yet, but I regularly come across things which say "as a paying member, you have full access to this, that and the other."
That's the point of paying isn't it? You get privileges that others don't. I have no doubt that there are non-members whose contribution is invaluable to the KudoZ system, and I would not belittle or take anything away from that.
I was only raising a point about people who, for example, create a profile just to get their school essay (or whatever) translated, the "can't-someone-else-do-it-for-me" attitude, i.e abusing the system somewhat, not providing enough CONTEXT porfa, as Henry Hinds puts it etc etc.
Yes there are rules (have you read them all?) and moderators too, but they can't be everywhere.
Regular, paying members should keep half an eye on potential abuses too...heck, I've even done it myself, when I had to call attention to a company profile (yes, a company profile) which had an offensive name (think of Gordon Ramsay's TV programme here).
Can't even begin to think how that one slipped the net.....but there you go.
And as for the filters, yes, there is a lot to be said about using that to block these types of question. Then again, just like the spam e-mails that come through - move on, don't give it a second thought.
| | | | Marina Soldati
Argentina
Local time: 19:10
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Much more than Kudoz | Jun 13, 2008 |
John Paul Weir wrote:
There is much more to Proz.com (a great site BTW) than just KudoZ, there are plenty of members-only features on this site - no pay, no access.
People use this site for all sorts of reasons: networking, finding jobs, earning points (what can you do with them anyway?), and especially the Blue Board.
I haven't seen the one half of this site yet, but I regularly come across things which say "as a paying member, you have full access to this, that and the other."
You are right, there´s much more here than Kudoz, but it´s Kudoz we are writting about.
I don´t believe it´s a question of money.
It´s true, there are moderators, but they can´t be online all day, monitoring the system. They are not paid.
Maybe some of us can have the possibility to block questions until context is provided, or until previous questions are closed.
This issue has been discussed many times before. Someone, Kim I think, propossed to decrease the amount of questions users can ask, but the staff have taken no type of action.
It seems they like things as they are now, so my solution is to use the filter.
Regards,
Marina
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JPW (X)
Local time: 23:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Proz.com is a personal site | Jun 14, 2008 |
Marina writes:
"You are right, there´s much more here than Kudoz, but it´s KudoZ we are writting about.
I don´t believe it´s a question of money. (sic)
That's very true, and we are of course talking specifically about KudoZ here, but your previous post spoke about 60 questions for $150 a year, so I am sorry, but if it's a question of money, then you mentioned it first.
There are people who will probably pay a subscription mainly just to get some answers....I don't doubt that. Don't believe me? Check their profiles, sure you don't even need to subscribe to be able to do that!
There are also people who would be quite frankly affronted to stoop so low as to have to ask fellow prozians for advice on such basic topics...not a good sign either, really. There is a happy medium somewhere, nobody has a monopoly on knowledge after all.
But maybe that's a bit disingenuous of me, after all, user profiles and experience need time to be built up. There I can plead guilty too, your honour. Then again, being wary of giving too much info....but that's another topic.
But yes, I am pretty sure there are plenty of proz users who are prepared to spend 150 dollars for other people to do their work - effectively - which is what I can see in my language pairs all too frequently; I don't know what it is like for other pairs....but I'd say it is pretty similar whatever the pairing, whether you're translating from Zulu or Tagalog, Russian, Martian, Portuguese or Welsh. No, they don't particularly float my boat either, but each language is as valid as the next one. But I wouldn't dare presume to be an expert on any of these just for 4 points.
(No diss to any of these languages BTW!)
I myself have seen, in the short space of time I have been here, (and I would like to stick around a while, please), people without a blue clue in their head trying to answer questions about, for example, Gaelic - just to get the points....my own point being that Gaelic is not exactly an 'á la mode' language, now is it? I mean, who in their right mind would do torture themselves over that???!!!! A "points hog", as someone else put it? Or am I being disingenuous here too?
As someone else mentioned earlier, due to the rules, if you post a hasty or ill-thought comment, you run the risk of being banned. Now that cannot be right either. As long as it is not offensive, what's the harm? To its logical extreme, if you posted an answer with which someone disagreed, you could technically have them banned from the site, depending on what they posted. Or how they posted it, I suppose.
Blocking, - or limiting beyond the current provisions - the amount of questions that paying members can ask is like shooting oneself in the foot, after all, that is why you pay your subscription, is it not? It's a privilege. You paid for it. You can ask as many daft questions as you like....? In fact, that's what people seem to be doing.
For me, posting a question would be a last resort - there is a search function after all, a pretty good one at that - by the time you've gone through all the rigmarole of posting a question, you could have had the damn thing researched and all sewn up in half the time!
The real rub is that some people take on work they're just not up to, or can't be bothered solving for themselves, and then, the next thing, "I know, I'll get some other eejit on Proz.com to do it for me. What's their house rule - no more than 10 words, eh? Half of it tonight and then the rest tomorrow? Yeah, I can do it like that."
Rookies are different. They are like puppy dogs. They need trained. We've all been (are) there. They might not even realize it - post a question, 20 mins later they get an answer. If it's wrong, so they can say "but I got it from a professional site! It must be right!!"
Perhaps the real tragedy is that some people cannot post a question correctly, but equally, there are those who cannot post an answer correctly too; again, we're all guilty of this too, to a certain extent.
Bottom line: KudoZ means different things to different people:
1. Those who answer JUST to get points (nothing wrong with that, that's the system. BUT if you spend all day (or week?) answering KudoZ, how do you ever get any work done?)
2. Those who want to genuinely help the asker (they too know who they are, and more KudoZ to them for it).
3. Those who ask EXCESSIVELY, and don't contribute anything else (they also know who they are), but by their very nature are the least likely to read this forum...and that probably rests the case.
But there is a wider issue here too. I know the original post was about KudoZ. But the wider point is this: It's not just about milking the KudoZ system, this site is a zone (for want of a better word) for people to exploit:- make use of the glossaries, create a profile, host a web page, do a bit of networking, ask a question, answer a qustion, read the articles, and so forth. Some get hooked on the KudoZ, some get hooked on the forums, etc. And some simply use it as a place to translate their whole assignment via the KudoZ system, which to me, is a waste of time and energy; it would be less hassle to outsource it for a fraction, then - something else you can do here quite easily.
It is a big site this ProZ.com, there are bound to be people who use it, abuse it and milk it: witness all the various and sundry posts every other day about low rates, oppressive conditions(?), the blue board, spam e-mails, rights over this, rights over that, blah blah. Don't get me wrong, these are all valid points to raise and I would not begrudge anyone genuinely seeking advice on these. You can't know everything. But you can strive to. By coming here, for example. You need help? Sure I'll help - if I can. But now I need help, who's here to back me up? Scratch mine, scratch yours, no?
ProZ is a very good site, and there are excellent resources here. It is enormous, quite possibly the biggest website I am ever likely to have the pleasure of using. There are also good people who use this site too.
If I could pinpoint just some of them, in different areas, I would say Ralf (moderator), who seems to me very fair with people; certain nameless people within my major pair for KudoZ knowledge and experience (I know who they are, that's all I need to know); and José-Henrique-the-Brazilian-fellow for his top drawer posts (and articles), seemingly no matter what the subject.
Now there's a wise owl people should [still] listen to.
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:10
Spanish to English
| On the subject of context... | Jun 14, 2008 |
James (Jim) Davis wrote:
There again, I have seen people put up difficult terms with zero context and many colleagues have asked for more and complained, while I just posted the answer, because I knew it.
This is so true. Sometimes people's cries for context just emphasise their own ignorance about the subject in question.
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:10
Spanish to English
| Rule 3.7 - is it ambiguous? | Jun 14, 2008 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
Since you mention rule 2.1, I thought it would be helpful to remind members what it actually says. Unfortunately rule 2.1 is not actually a rule but a "guideline" (official site interpretation), which is nullified by rule 3.7, which really is a rule and is strictly enforced in some language pairs. Members are prohibited from invoking "rule" 2.1, i.e. in any way calling an asker's attention to it. Rule 3.7 has been used by the site to expel colleagues from the site when they've reminded askers to do their homework before asking pros to help them with their translations.
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3.7 Commentary on askers or answerers, and their postings or decisions to post, is not allowed. Comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question or answer, grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited (whether posted publicly, made directly to the person in question, or made to another site user).
Thanks, Kim, for your post and reminding me about rule 3.7.
I find the wording a little ambiguous. You are not allowed to make any comments publicly. OK, I get that. You are not allowed to make any comments directly to the person in question. I assume this means email, instant messaging, Skype, etc. I think I get that too. But what does or (...) to another site user actually mean? If you make a comment that can be read by all on this site, that is covered by the first part (posted publicly). So, does this mean I'm not allowed to send someone a private email complaining about an asker's practices with a link to the offending question?
Could someone please clarify, because I don't get it.
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