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ruta napoleónica
Agua de primario

Glossary entry

español term or phrase:

época afrancesada

inglés translation:

period of French domination

Added to glossary by Jenni Lukac (X)
Feb 7, 2013 12:41
12 yrs ago
español term

época afrancesada

español al inglés Otros Historia
Hi everyone,

This appears in a description of the items on display in an Arms Museum.

También habrá visitas al Museo de Armería, que cuenta con una importante colección de elementos relacionados con la batalla, y la confección de una ruta napoleónica, con la colocación de una serie de placas relacionadas con los principales puntos de la ***época afrancesada***.

All suggestions are welcome,

Many thanks,

Jack
Proposed translations (inglés)
4 +6 period of French domination
4 +3 the francophile period
4 +1 era of Napoleonic collaboration
4 +1 the French occupation
3 +1 the era of the French empire
4 French period/perod of French dominance
4 French-style period
3 Frenchified period
References
see
Change log

Feb 13, 2013 16:40: Jenni Lukac (X) Created KOG entry

Discussion

liz askew Feb 8, 2013:
Interesting debate indeed. Perhaps the author is not a historian!
Anyway, we are all more "enlightened" now.
Jenni Lukac (X) Feb 8, 2013:
It could be that the client is asking for translations of old posts on a website. I have several clients who ask me to do this from time to time. The April trip is focused around monuments and tapas. My husband has his heart set on enjoying Guijuelo ham in situ. The battlegrounds can wait for the right moment in the future.
Charles Davis Feb 8, 2013:
@ Jenni My first reaction was that 2012 has got to be a typo. Why on earth would they do it a year early? But checking the calendar I see that 9, 16 and 23 June are Sundays this year and were Saturdays in 2012, so apparently it was last year after all. Better check before making a special trip. Good luck, and tell us about it if you do manage to see it!
Jenni Lukac (X) Feb 8, 2013:
We'll see. The Spring itinerary includes Toledo, Salamanca, Burgos and Vitoria. It might be possible to take Vitoria off the list and make a separate trip in June. Have a good weekend everyone!
Toni Castano Feb 8, 2013:
Hi Jenny (he he) if you do, please don´t forget 1) to enjoy the trip (most important thing, sure) and 2) tell them, sorry, kindly ask them to remove the term "afrancesado" from the brochure. Of course, you can also remind them to change the year, if it´s not asking too much.
Jenni Lukac (X) Feb 8, 2013:
I just noticed that the year mentioned in the image is 2012. Hmm...
Jenni Lukac (X) Feb 8, 2013:
Interesting link, Toni. Thanks for posting it. I'll be passing through Victoria in early April, but I might consider another trip back in June to take one of the guided visits. They look tempting!
Toni Castano Feb 8, 2013:
The link we didn´t have yesterday... and provides the essential information:
http://www.gasteizhoy.com/ociogasteiz/vitoria-vuelve-al-camp...
In this link the term "afrancesado" is wrongly used, but it is clear that it refers to the period of the French domination on the Iberian peninsula. Again, "afrancesado" has a very specific historical, cultural and political connotation and is wrongly used in this text.
Charles Davis Feb 8, 2013:
Of course, I could be quite wrong. It has been known :)
Charles Davis Feb 8, 2013:
@ Liz Yes it does have those connotations, and I began my own comment by saying so ("can denote" was an understatement; I should have said "normally denotes"). But we have no guarantee that the term is being used here in that sense. If not, you could argue that it is being misused, but this can happen. My point was that Spain, or any particular part of Spain, didn't have an "época afrancesada" in the sense of a period in which Spain was generally "Frenchified", because those who embraced French ideas and culture were always an unrepresentative minority. It could mean the period of French influence, rather than rule or occupation, and perhaps it does, but even that seems to me doubtful, because French influence resulting from the presence of the Napoleonic invaders was not confined to the period of their physical presence. The "época afrancesada" has got to be the period when the French were actually there, that is, up to 1813. In short, Spain didn't really have an "época afrancesada" in that sense of "afrancesada", so I don't think it means that here, though it usually does (let me say it yet again).
liz askew Feb 7, 2013:
On the contrary Charles, "afrancesado/a" has very particular historical connotations in Spain, and other parts of the Spanish empire at the time; this is not about domininance or rule, but rather the influence of French ideas and culture on enlightened Spaniards.
Charles Davis Feb 7, 2013:
There's a lot of truth in that, David. Domination is perhaps too strong a word. But I think you can talk about rule, albeit nominal, quite short-lived and never secure in the whole country. I didn't really intend to address this question in my comment, which was only concerned with what "afrancesada" means here, and why I don't think that in this particular case it refers to Spanish attitudes to or actions towards the French, though it usually does.
David Ronder Feb 7, 2013:
But to what extent (as all good essay questions begin) was it a period of French domination or even rule? Were they in any meaningful sense 'in charge'? Alright they invaded and occupied the strongholds, but it was a pretty chaotic picture, with guerrilla warfare and the British forces defeating them before too long. Influence, occupation, collaboration - yes. Domination, rule, empire: I don't think so.
Charles Davis Feb 7, 2013:
“Afrancesado” certainly can denote an attachment (by implication excessive) to things French, and in the Napoleonic period the “afrancesados” in Spain were those who welcomed and collaborated with the French regime. However, I don’t think it has that meaning in this expression. The “época afrancesada” referred to here is a period in the history of Spain, or at least of a region of Spain. That period was obviously 1808-1813, the period of French rule. During this period, some Spaniards were afrancesados, in the sense referred to above, and some weren’t. It was a period during which afrancesamiento existed, but it wasn’t a period of afrancesamiento, as opposed to a period of non-afrancesamiento. If it referred to a person or a group of people, “época afrancesada” could mean a pro-French period, but Spain itself didn’t have a pro-French period; it had a French period (a period of French rule) during which some people were pro-French. So I think it just means the period during which the French were in charge.

Proposed translations

+6
6 minutos
Selected

period of French domination

One idea. It would be nice to have a location, dates, more context...
Note from asker:
Hi Jenni. It refers to the time of the Battle of Vitoria, in 1813.
Peer comment(s):
agree Evans (X) : As the Battle of Vitoria marked the end of the Napoleonic reign in Spain, I think this would work fine.
59 minutos
Thanks very much, Gilla. Have a good day.
agree James A. Walsh
1 hora
Thanks very much, James.
agree Yvonne Gallagher : or even period of Napoleonic domination
1 hora
Thanks, gallagy. yes, that would work well, as long as "Napoleon" didn't get repeated too often for the flow of the text.
agree Carol Gullidge
2 horas
Thanks very much, Carol.
disagree liz askew : this ignores the part played by Spaniards who supported the French influence./I think "dominance" should be avoided at all costs.
4 horas
That's an interesting pint, Liz. One would have to have more context, but if the itinerary also included sites related the French influence, it could be rephrased "French dominance and influence."
agree Toni Castano : "Domination" misses really the point. "Afrancesamiento" has primarily to do with admiration of the French culture and political system of the time. // In view of the link I´ve just posted (see above) I agree that "domination" is meant here.
5 horas
I agree with you in principal, Tony, but one has to look at the context of a "ruta napoleónica" in Spain.
agree Charles Davis : I think people have been misled by the connotations of "afrancesado" in other contexts. Here I think this is all it means.
6 horas
Thanks, Charles. I frankly think that the author could have been a bit less poetic and a bit more precise.
agree Rodrigo Fontes (X) : This translation is fine. The original term is actually misused since it refers here to the French occupation, while the "afrancesados" were the Spanish supporters of the French and their influence. The use here implies a bias on the part of the writer.
1 día 15 horas
Thanks, Rodrigo. I agree. Context is everything here. Jack could always query. I would, if I were the translator, just to officially have my interpretation verified by the client.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks so much again, Jenni. Thanks also to everyone else who contributed here. Best regards, Jack"
3 minutos

Frenchified period

– I then roamed about…saw the Charterhouse that Stendhal, who lived her quite a while during the Frenchified period of Napoleon
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : erm - I don't know where that link came from, but it sounds definitely odd! (lived her??)//yes of course. It nevertheless reflects on the general quality of the quote.
35 minutos
That's obviously a typo.
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : "Frenchified" doesn't work here
2 horas
ok
Something went wrong...
+1
4 minutos

the era of the French empire

A suggestion.
Peer comment(s):
agree Yvonne Gallagher : could work
2 horas
Something went wrong...
1 hora

French period/perod of French dominance

If this is about the Netherlands, use the answer above.

If not, I would use the era of the First French Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_French_Empire). Perhaps even Napoleonic era might be another option - ends in 1815 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_era).
Reference:

http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/409956/Netherlands/35847/The-period-of-French-dominance-1795-1813

https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/explore-the-collection/timeline-dutch-history/1806-1813-french-period

Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : why not agree with Jenni's answer?
1 hora
Sorry, I guess that would be because I didn't see it. However, you can consider my contribution to be "the era of the First French Empire" (which I provided in the explanation and which differs from Jenni's answer).
neutral Evans (X) : Except that the asker has made it clear we are talking about the Peninsular War (Battle of Vitoria).
1 hora
neutral Neil Ashby : How is the "era of the First French empire" different from my answer?!?!
21 horas
I obviously jumped in to answer while doing five things at the same time and didn't check the previous answers at all - entirely my fault; so just disregard my answer.
Something went wrong...
1 hora

French-style period

A suggestion, due to the context: "and the making of a Napoleonic route, with the placement of a series of plates that are related to the main points of the French-style period". It can be a narrowed translation but reflects the sense of the text. Good luck!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : this is not about French STYLE
34 minutos
It's an option and I'd give it the chance due to the context. Thanks for pointing your sight.
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hora

era of Napoleonic collaboration

I'm going to stick my neck out a bit here.

My Oxford dictionary has 'afrancescado' as "(peyorativo) (Historia) persona: who supported the French during the Peninsular War".

I think somehow you have to catch this pejorative sense - and what better word for this than 'collaboration'? If you talked about 'French collaboration' that would confuse the issue with World War II and raise the spectre of anachronism. So I propose using Napoleonic as a synonym for French in this period, which doesn't seem unreasonable for an absolute autocrat.

L’état, c’était lui.

And it was a collaboration of one part of Spain with French/Napoleonic invaders.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-02-07 14:14:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There would be repetition of 'Napoleonic' in the sentence with 'ruta napoleónica', but I actually think it would work well as a form of positive reinforcement of the idea. Repetition is not always a bad thing.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : "collaboration" just doesn't work here imo. //Maybe for a highbrow historian then:-). For me, "collaboration" has too many other (more modern) connotations ...
39 minutos
But there's even a book about Napoleonic Europe with it in the title: http://www.isbnlib.com/isbn/0333984544/Collaboration-and-Res... //It's standard historical discourse - and that's what's required
agree liz askew : well, this is about Spaniards who fell under the French influence!
2 horas
Thanks, Liz
Something went wrong...
+3
5 minutos

the francophile period

One possibility

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-02-07 15:32:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://www.themagazineantiques.com/news-opinion/from-the-arc...

Before the Francophile period, Americans were satisfied with their landscape and the painters who recorded it.
Peer comment(s):
agree Andrew Bramhall : Exactly
10 minutos
Thank you, Oliver
neutral Carol Gullidge : francophile means a lover of the French. Is this really what you mean?
31 minutos
That is what I THINK i the original means. Not 100% sure.
neutral Vianely Gambin : That term is a bit tricky.. if you search for it in a translation dictionary means "afrancesado".. if you search it in an english one, means lover of the french...
1 hora
I agree, but I still think my suggestion is suitable
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : means "lover of the French" for an English speaker
1 hora
Yes it does, and I still think it is a suitable translation for "afrancesada" in this context
agree Toni Castano : Your suggestion is suitable. After all, they were in fact admirers of the French.
5 horas
Much appreciated.
agree liz askew : This is appropriate, too. http://www.google.co.uk/search?as_q=celulas T CD45RB&as_epq=...
10 horas
Thank you, Liz, but the URL you provide is a Google results page with a totally unrelated topic.
Something went wrong...
+1
8 minutos

the French occupation

another option!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2013-02-08 00:18:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

People seem to be missing the point that many of the options offered here are implicit in "occupation" - cultural dominance, control etc. are all part of occupation by an invading nation, whether welcomed by the people or not.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : was it an occupation?
1 hora
Well, yes it was - please see Charles' post in case you are in any doubt.
agree Charles Davis : Logically I have to agree with this!
9 horas
many thanks Charles! ;-)
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

4 horas
Reference:

see

http://eres.lndproxy.org/edoc/FacPubs/loy/WardT/Afrancesado-...


AFRANCESADO. The term afrancesado ("the
Frenchified") was applied to Spaniards who collabo-
rated with the regime of Joseph Bonaparte during
the War of Independence (1808-1814). In 1808
Napoleon lured Charles IV and his son, Ferdinand
VII, into exile in France and placed his brother,
Joseph, on the Spanish throne. The afrancesados
were constitutional monarchists—though not wed-
ded to one particular dynasty—who advocated mod-
erate social and political reforms.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-02-07 17:05:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:b8Of01xgHo0J:smal...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-02-07 17:09:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The British Book Trade and Spanish American Independence: ... - Page 61 - Google Books Result
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0754632784
Eugenia Roldán Vera - 2003 - Business & Economics
... the end of the Inquisition, and kept Roman Catholicism as the official religion of ...in general, preferred France (a reason why they were called 'afrancesados').
Enlightenment in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_in_Spain
Called "afrancesados," they viewed the end of the Inquisition and theestablishment of a more secular, liberal monarchy with affection, but as the French ...
Guerrilla Conflict Before the Cold War - Page 109 - Google Books Result
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=027595482X
Anthony James Joes - 1996 - History
The Afrancesados numbered in their ranks some truly outstanding statesmen. ... of the Bourbons or the France of the Bonapartes made little practical difference. ...Enlightenment and were convinced that Spain badly needed drastic reforms.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2013-02-07 23:14:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

see here too

Siglo XVIII: Siglo de los Reyes
civycultura.osu.edu/artes/sXVIII/intro.html - Translate this page
La influencia francesa impuesta al pueblo ocasionó en múltiples aspectos de la vida ... los gustos franceses, significaba un “afrancesamiento” visto como excesivo y ... de un nuevo orden social, cuando en realidad era el fin de una época.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2013-02-07 23:21:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Napoleon & Empire - Timeline of the Napoleonic era - 1808
www.napoleon-empire.com/.../chronology-1808.php - United States
Dec 29, 2012 – 12 June – First meeting, in Bayonne, of a francophile "Spanish Junta". – 13 June – The Counselor of the Inquisition of Spain requests the Junta ...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Toni Castano : Yes, they were collaborators, but not only that and not in all cases. Before all, they were admirers of the French, as they felt ashamed of the Spanish.
1 hora
Indeed. This is my understanding too, and I did study Spanish history at University:)
Something went wrong...
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