| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Entering 'See comment...' in answer box Thread poster: Tony M
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Tony M
France
Local time: 13:29
Member
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | Glossary issues should move to another thread | May 12, 2005 |
Jabberwock wrote:
I am afraid that glossary requires a separate discusssion, as many people call for significant changes.
You're right, let's take that to another thread...
"...add a search option that includes the explanation text field (caveat searcher, but it would be so useful)" It happens so that I have made this suggestion just before you posted this  As it would be not practical for the general searches, I propose it to be used as a subsearch (along with another feature). Read here for more details: http://www.proz.com/topic/32289
Great minds think alike! I'll go and take a look later on...
As you say, it could only work as a sub-search, to be used with caution, clearly!
| | | | | Quality over speed | May 12, 2005 |
Dusty wrote:
I was quite distressed to hear that you think there is a 'race for points' --- call me naïve, but I really had no idea this happened! When I hurry to answer, it is purely to help the Asker, in case it's urgent; and as Kim has generously pointed out, I quite often add extra comments hours later, or even post-grading; it seems to me that way any information I have to contribute goes into the 'knowledge bank', for better or for worse.
Well, Dusty, I have to say I am surprised you haven't noticed this 'race for points.' If askers observed the recommendation to keep their questions open at least 24 hours, we would have less of a race.
http://www.proz.com/post/217675#217675
There are times when a translator needs an answer fast, but that's no reason to close the question five minutes after getting something the asker thinks might work. I've found interesting questions and launched an extensive investigation only to find the question was closed by the time I'd finished my research. OK, that's no problem - I can still enter the translation I came up with, but if the asker had left the question open she might have found something better for her translation - and more importantly entered the best term in the glossary. An alarming number of askers ignore the "recommendation" and that contributes to the race to be first. We must emphasize quality over speed.
Oh, and here's a classic comment on the KudoZ race from way back:
http://www.proz.com/topic/9867
[Edited at 2005-05-12 18:13]
| | | | Tony M
France
Local time: 13:29
Member
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | Early closing | May 12, 2005 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
If askers observed the recommendation to keep their questions open at least 24 hours, we would have less of a race.
Yes, I take all the points, but I have always viewed it from another perspective, and I hope KudoZ is big enough to admit another viewpoint.
Very occasionally, I have asked a question, been satisfied with an early response, and close the question quickly --- out of consideration for my colleagues, because I don't want them to waste their time bothering with my question, once the problem has been resolved to my satisfaction.
Of course Answerers are free to add further comments at any time (as I do quite often) --- but surely closing a question is the only way to say to my peers "thanks a lot, I've got the answer I need, I don't want to trouble you any further".
Surely it is the Asker who is best placed to assess the 'urgency vs. input' compromise?
If there were a way of pre-closing a question (i.e. don't bother researching any more) whilst waiting the recommended time before awarding points, that would seem to me a satisfactory compromise; though all these 'bright ideas' are only making KudoZ more and more complicated to use (and no doubt manage!)
| | | | | Quality answers | May 12, 2005 |
Dusty wrote:
Very occasionally, I have asked a question, been satisfied with an early response, and close the question quickly --- out of consideration for my colleagues, because I don't want them to waste their time bothering with my question, once the problem has been resolved to my satisfaction.
Of course Answerers are free to add further comments at any time (as I do quite often) --- but surely closing a question is the only way to say to my peers "thanks a lot, I've got the answer I need, I don't want to trouble you any further".
Surely it is the Asker who is best placed to assess the 'urgency vs. input' compromise?
As a seasoned professional, you are best placed to assess when no more input is needed, Dusty. But very many askers are not. If you regularly close your questions early, others will follow your example.
Askers should know that KudoZ offers two benefits: one for the asker and one for the community. The asker will get terms help after exhausting all other methods used by translators to fiind a translation and the community will get one more term in the KOG with reliable explanations and references.
I think you should always follow the recommendation and leave your questions open for at least 24 hours. You can always add a note telling potential answerers that you believe you've already got a good answer and telling them what it is.
What causes more harm - having a few answerers submit something after YOU have made up your mind (still hoping their answer might be even better than the one you have decided on) or entering a term in the glossary for which there might have been an even better one?
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Tony M
France
Local time: 13:29
Member
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | Good compromise | May 12, 2005 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
I think you should always follow the recommendation and leave your questions open for at least 24 hours. You can always add a note telling potential answerers that you believe you've already got a good answer and telling them what it is.
Fair enough! That seems like a simple and workable way to deal with it, on those rare occasions when it arises.
I must admit it had never occurred to me that anyone might follow my example!
| | | | two2tango 
Argentina
Local time: 08:29
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
| I still find this rule very reasonable | May 13, 2005 |
It is a pleasure to read an exchange of ideas that keeps such a civil level posting after posting.
For my part I can only say that I still find KudoZ rule 2.6 very reasonable.
2.6 - Expressions such as 'see below' must not be entered in the form boxes intended for the term in question, or its proposed translations. Entering such expressions interferes with the expected display of the KudoZ viewing page, alerts, digests and glossary entries.
Kind regards,
Enrique
| | | | Can Altinbay
Local time: 07:29
Japanese to English
+ ...
In memoriam | You make a great point | May 13, 2005 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
But I also feel very strongly about the need to do something to slow down the KudoZ process a bit. As it stands now, the perception that getting in an answer before anyone else has a chance to is positively harmful. So we have an answer that meets the criteria for entry in the answer box, but it's a godawful translation that will need to be changed just as "see comment" will have to be changed. The glossaries are full of these kinds of answers.
Looking at some of the comments that have been made here, it would appear that some don't mind seeing the junk answers in the titles, as long as they are not of the "see comments" vein. (This is an "it comes across to me like" statement.)
I think that Dusty, for one, has made excellent arguments. Neither he nor I want to make moderators' work more difficult nor do we wish to see irrevelant terms in the glossary. Both of us have placed a "see comments" or eqquivalent in an answer title. Neither of us make a habit of it. It would be nice if the discourse could be kept at a reasoned level. I for one do not like being scolded.
So thanks, Kim, for your reasoned comment.
| | | | Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 13:29
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | The answer is a selection | May 13, 2005 |
Can Altinbay wrote:
Looking at some of the comments that have been made here, it would appear that some don't mind seeing the junk answers in the titles, as long as they are not of the "see comments" vein. (This is an "it comes across to me like" statement.)
I don't know whom you are referring to but I think you missed the point.
The whole idea with KudoZ is that people should offer their best ANSWER (without guaranteeing that it is perfect).
A box has been created for that, called the ANSWER box.
That's where the ANSWER belongs.
'See below' is no ANSWER.
Mats
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Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 14:29
Member (2004)
English to Russian
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| my proposition | May 13, 2005 |
Can Altinbay wrote:
Looking at some of the comments that have been made here, it would appear that some don't mind seeing the junk answers in the titles, as long as they are not of the "see comments" vein. (This is an "it comes across to me like" statement.)
This is my impression, too. I'm all for rules, but not for substituting the formal letter of a rule for its spirit and real purpose. As was said many times in this thread, in kudoZ we deal not only with stable and unambigous terms, but also with explainations. Moreover, not all kudoZ questions-answers should be added to the glossaries, because they are highly context-dependent.
For a while, the rule sounds as "a must", and any deviation may be treated as a violation:
2.6 - Expressions such as 'see below' must not be entered in the form boxes intended for the term in question, or its proposed translations.
I would propose to change the wording slightly, so that it was a reasonable recommendation, something like:
"Whenever possible, expressions such as 'see below' should be avoided in the form boxes..." and so on.
It's obvious, that most contributors to the topic use "see below" not that often -- and only when they think that this is the best solution in this or that individual case.
| | | | lien
Netherlands
Local time: 13:29
English to French
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| Agree with Dusty | May 13, 2005 |
Dusty wrote:
Also, why can't we have a KudoZ search that looks for terms within the actual explanation text as well --- à la GDT, for example? This single feature alone would make KudoZ a million times more useful, and at a stroke avoid all such issues' being a problem
I completely agree with Dusty here. I can't understand how it is more quicker to search in proz via google. The engine should search the whole text of the questions, not only the header.
Furthermore, the one whose answer has been chosen has to make the entry in the glossary. It is to him to replace the "see comment" by the appropriate term. Or "phrase below" from the asker. I do it all the time.
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 13:29
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| Already exists | May 13, 2005 |
lien wrote: Dusty wrote:
Also, why can't we have a KudoZ search that looks for terms within the actual explanation text as well --- à la GDT, for example? This single feature alone would make KudoZ a million times more useful, and at a stroke avoid all such issues' being a problem
I completely agree with Dusty here. I can't understand how it is more quicker to search in proz via google. The engine should search the whole text of the questions, not only the header. Furthermore, the one whose answer has been chosen has to make the entry in the glossary. It is to him to replace the "see comment" by the appropriate term. Or "phrase below" from the asker. I do it all the time.
I may be mistaken, but I think this feature already exists.
If the initial KudoZ search does not produce any results, the following appears:
"No results found.
Didn't find the term you seek?
Search for KudoZ containing your term"
I understand that "KudoZ containing your term" refers to the text of the answers.
Regards,
Andy
| | | | two2tango
Argentina
Local time: 08:29
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
Mats Wiman wrote:
The whole idea with KudoZ is that people should offer their best ANSWER (without guaranteeing that it is perfect).
A box has been created for that, called the ANSWER box.
That's where the ANSWER belongs.
'See below' is no ANSWER.
As clear as crystal
Cheers,
Enrique
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Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 14:29
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Juggling with words... | May 13, 2005 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
The whole idea with KudoZ is that people should offer their best ANSWER (without guaranteeing that it is perfect).
A box has been created for that, called the ANSWER box.
That's where the ANSWER belongs.
'See below' is no ANSWER.
Sorry, Mats, but you are simply juggling with the word here.
First, kudoZ is not about *the best answer*, it's about *the most helpful* answer which may be different depending on askers' needs and context.
Second, a kudoZ answer is not only the title, it's also its body which is often very large and very imformative. Why pay so much attention to the title, if the content is good and useful?
| | | | Endre Both
Germany
Local time: 13:29
English to German
| Elaboration on terminology questions should be encouraged | May 13, 2005 |
Mats wrote:
The whole idea with KudoZ is that people should offer their best ANSWER . (...) A box has been created for that, called the ANSWER box. That's where the ANSWER belongs. 'See below' is no ANSWER.
Enrique wrote:
As clear as crystal
Not so, I'm afraid. A considerable proportion of the terminology doubts dealt with in the KudoZ area could do with more rather than less elaboration on the part of answerers. This fixation on the "ANSWER box" where "the ANSWER belongs" stifles the creative approach in favour of dictionary-like responses, which would be a very sorry direction for KudoZ to take.
I do not support the idea that the answer needs to fit into that one-line space, with all the rest that comes being no more than supportive evidence, references, etc.
In fact, it is exactly in those cases in which KudoZ comes into its own (i.e. where the answer cannot be found in a dictionary), that the first line is no more than a heading, an introduction to the most valuable part of KudoZ: insight into the experience and thoughts of language professionals applied to one particular linguistic problem.
To me, the glossary is secondary to this live exchange among language enthusiasts, and I'm not convinced that reining in some of the best contributors (those who need a better example than Dusty please step forward) in favour of the glossary will benefit KudoZ the least bit.
This is not to say that no effort should be made to summarise your answer in the heading box whenever possible. I support the wording suggested by Kirill: "Whenever possible, expressions such as 'see below' should be avoided in the form boxes..."
But let's not become obsessed with the glossary.
Endre
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 13:29
German to English
+ ...
Endre Both wrote:
To me, the glossary is secondary to this live exchange among language enthusiasts, and I'm not convinced that reining in some of the best contributors (those who need a better example than Dusty please step forward) in favour of the glossary will benefit KudoZ the least bit.
But let's not become obsessed with the glossary.
Endre
Quite agree - and anyone who plucks a term from the glossary without consulting the question it came from deserves all they get!
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