Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Russian term or phrase:
Они стали терять свободу в темпе шагреневой кожи.
English translation:
Their freedom was shrinking away like a genie returning to his bottle
Added to glossary by
Valery Kaminski
Feb 3, 2007 14:03
17 yrs ago
Russian term
Они стали терять свободу в темпе шагреневой кожи.
Russian to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
Проблема, в том, что в русском языке словосочетание "шагреневая кожа" автоматически ассоциируется с произведением Бальзака и делает понятным ситуацию (во всяком случае для тех, кто знаком с произведением). Английский же вариант названия произведения (и словосочетания) "Magic Skin" таких ассоциаций не дает...
Я и сам буду думать, но помощь клуба явно окажется полезной. :-))
Я и сам буду думать, но помощь клуба явно окажется полезной. :-))
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+3
32 mins
Selected
Their freedom was shrinking away like a genie returning to his bottle
/
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Note added at 40 мин (2007-02-03 14:43:07 GMT)
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...like a deflated balloon
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Note added at 42 мин (2007-02-03 14:46:02 GMT)
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...like Alice in Wonderland
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Note added at 40 мин (2007-02-03 14:43:07 GMT)
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...like a deflated balloon
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Note added at 42 мин (2007-02-03 14:46:02 GMT)
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...like Alice in Wonderland
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Спасибо всем! Вдруг выяснилось, что данное выражение употреблено не совсем обдуманно. То есть подразумевалось несколько иное. Всё оказалось гораздо проще. Используемое сравнение с шагреневой кожей оказалось не совсем к месту. Но лично мне понравился именно выбранный мной вариант. Еще раз СПАСИБО ВСЕМ!"
9 mins
They saw their freedom ebb away from them at an ever faster pace
my humble attempt
+1
1 hr
They were losing their freedom at the speed that Raphael's skin shrank/shrinks
The novel has three parts: The Talisman, The Woman without a Heart, and Agony. The novel opens with the main character, Raphael de Valentin, losing his last gold coin at the roulette table. Before he commits suicide by throwing himself into the Seine, he enters an antique shop full of bizarre remnants from different ages and civilizations. The strange owner of the shop directs him to a mysterious piece of animal skin that King Solomon supposedly cast a spell over eons ago. The skin is capable of granting any wish the holder makes. The only catch is that with every wish the skin shrinks and when the skin has shrunk to nothing the holder will die.
The first first thing Raphael wishes for is a wild party to snap himself out of his depression. Immediately, as he leaves the shop he bumps into several friends of his heading to a banquet thrown by a banker who's starting a new opposition newspaper. His luck picking up, Raphael is offered the job of editor for the newspaper. The picture of dissipation and chaos that Balzac paints at the end of this party is quite incredible.
The first first thing Raphael wishes for is a wild party to snap himself out of his depression. Immediately, as he leaves the shop he bumps into several friends of his heading to a banquet thrown by a banker who's starting a new opposition newspaper. His luck picking up, Raphael is offered the job of editor for the newspaper. The picture of dissipation and chaos that Balzac paints at the end of this party is quite incredible.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Alexandra Tussing
: while that's all true will this be clear from just one statemnet to an average reader?
6 hrs
|
I highly doubt it, but any more than the Russian?
|
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neutral |
Arkadi Burkov
: в русском языке идиома "шагреневая кожа" и связанные с ней ассоциации понятны даже тем, кто не читал Бальзака вовсе.
16 hrs
|
neutral |
Tevah_Trans
: Agree with Rakardi. Nice recap though.
1 day 23 hrs
|
2 hrs
Their freedom was vanishing as their wishes were satisfied
This one seems to be closer to what Mark said. You can put it either "Every time they paid with their vanishing freedom for their wishes satisfied" or "Their freedom was vanishing as their wishes were satisfied one by one", etc.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2007-02-03 16:24:09 GMT)
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Unfortunately I could not find anything related to "skin".
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Note added at 2 hrs (2007-02-03 16:24:09 GMT)
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Unfortunately I could not find anything related to "skin".
3 hrs
They saw their freedom shrinking to a vanishing point
Like "шагреневая кожа"
4 hrs
below
I personally would omit any reference to "Shagrenev skin "at all
and only preserve the meaning of the whole sentence.
Say, "they saw their freedoms vanishing in thin air " .
However, if you desire to preserve the original , you could always
use a little clarification "...shrinking, like Shagrenev skin in Balzak`s novell". Obviously, meant for a well-read audience:)
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Note added at 4 hrs (2007-02-03 18:47:34 GMT)
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"vanishinf FAST in thin air" rather
and only preserve the meaning of the whole sentence.
Say, "they saw their freedoms vanishing in thin air " .
However, if you desire to preserve the original , you could always
use a little clarification "...shrinking, like Shagrenev skin in Balzak`s novell". Obviously, meant for a well-read audience:)
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Note added at 4 hrs (2007-02-03 18:47:34 GMT)
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"vanishinf FAST in thin air" rather
+2
7 hrs
they watched their freedom shrivel/wither before them
some alternatives.
HTH
Sara
HTH
Sara
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Alexandra Tussing
: could work, even though the original reference is lost
12 mins
|
It is a shame to lose the "peau de chagrin" reference but, for me at least, it is hard tomake it workable in English. Thank you, Rusinterp.
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|
agree |
Olga Cartlidge
: or "go up in smoke".
3 hrs
|
Yes, I think that is an excellent option. I was also toying with "evaporate into the ether". :)
|
+2
2 days 4 hrs
***
***Мой вариант:
Their freedom has being shrunk like a piece of magic shagreen which
did so with an every fulfilled owner's wish.
Скажу честно, что я "освежила" свои познания в области творчества О.Бальзака и пришла к выводам, которыми хочу поделиться.
Мне кажется, что самой фразы маловато, чтобы выполнить хороший перевод. Дело в том, что неясно - кто они, почему стали терять свободу и что автор понимает под словом "свобода" (физическая, творческая, экономическая, пр.).
Ведь в романе шагреневая кожа не просто съеживалась/уменьшалась, а 1/ это происходило медленно;
2/ и главное (для меня) - в обмен на исполнение желаний владельца: таково было условие с самого начала.
http://www.lib.ru/INOOLD/BALZAK/shagren.txt
*Обладая мною, ты будешь обладать всем, но жизнь твоя будет принадлежать мне. Так угодно богу. Желай -- и желания твои будут исполнены. Но соразмеряй свои желания со своей жизнью. Она -- здесь. При каждом желании я буду убывать, как твои дни.*
Для меня это выражение известной философии :
за все нужно платить, причем чаще всего цена весьма высока.
Если в данном (предложенном нам ) отрывке автор подразумевает, что ххххх теряли свободу (права?) В ОБМЕН на какие-то льготы/исполнение желаний, то это происходило медленно - но процесс был предсказуемым, исходя из аналогии.
Оказывается, само название просто приобрело "нарицательный" смысл в связи с одноименным романом. А вообще слово "шагрень" существует и в русском, и в английском языках, означая кожу определенного типа (шероховатую, как правило).
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/muller/NT000F952E
shagreen noun шагрень
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ushakov/NT0010A14E
ШАГРЕНЬ, шагрени, мн. нет, ж. (фр. chagrin с араб.). Мягкая шероховатая кожа (козлиная, баранья, конская и т. д.) с рисунком, напоминающим натуральный рисунок козлиной кожи. Портфель из шагрени.
Their freedom has being shrunk like a piece of magic shagreen which
did so with an every fulfilled owner's wish.
Скажу честно, что я "освежила" свои познания в области творчества О.Бальзака и пришла к выводам, которыми хочу поделиться.
Мне кажется, что самой фразы маловато, чтобы выполнить хороший перевод. Дело в том, что неясно - кто они, почему стали терять свободу и что автор понимает под словом "свобода" (физическая, творческая, экономическая, пр.).
Ведь в романе шагреневая кожа не просто съеживалась/уменьшалась, а 1/ это происходило медленно;
2/ и главное (для меня) - в обмен на исполнение желаний владельца: таково было условие с самого начала.
http://www.lib.ru/INOOLD/BALZAK/shagren.txt
*Обладая мною, ты будешь обладать всем, но жизнь твоя будет принадлежать мне. Так угодно богу. Желай -- и желания твои будут исполнены. Но соразмеряй свои желания со своей жизнью. Она -- здесь. При каждом желании я буду убывать, как твои дни.*
Для меня это выражение известной философии :
за все нужно платить, причем чаще всего цена весьма высока.
Если в данном (предложенном нам ) отрывке автор подразумевает, что ххххх теряли свободу (права?) В ОБМЕН на какие-то льготы/исполнение желаний, то это происходило медленно - но процесс был предсказуемым, исходя из аналогии.
Оказывается, само название просто приобрело "нарицательный" смысл в связи с одноименным романом. А вообще слово "шагрень" существует и в русском, и в английском языках, означая кожу определенного типа (шероховатую, как правило).
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/muller/NT000F952E
shagreen noun шагрень
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ushakov/NT0010A14E
ШАГРЕНЬ, шагрени, мн. нет, ж. (фр. chagrin с араб.). Мягкая шероховатая кожа (козлиная, баранья, конская и т. д.) с рисунком, напоминающим натуральный рисунок козлиной кожи. Портфель из шагрени.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Arkadi Burkov
: шикарный ответ
12 hrs
|
thank you, Rakardi
|
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agree |
Tevah_Trans
: Extremely impressive write-up, conclusions, and thinking process. Thank you for the library link too.
1 day 53 mins
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thank you, Elina, I really appretiate your opinion
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2 days 1 hr
Their freedom was disappearing at the pace of Dorian Gray's innocence/youth.
"The Picture of Dorian Gray" is a novel by Oscar Wilde, and it is much better known in the West than Honore de Balsac's writings. By using this analogy, I believe you may have a better chance to connect with your audience. Here is a short recap, courtesy of wikipedia, where a much lengthy recap also may be found.
The novel tells of a young man named Dorian Gray, the subject of a painting by artist Basil Hallward. Dorian is convinced, through a series of encounters, that beauty is the only thing worth pursuing, and because his newly painted portrait reflects his beauty, he cries out, wishing that the portrait Basil has painted of him would age rather than himself. Dorian's wish is fulfilled, subsequently plunging him into a sequence of debauched acts. The portrait serves as a reminder of the effect each act has upon his soul, each sin being displayed as a new sign of ageing on the portrait.
The Picture of Dorian Gray is considered one of the last works of classic gothic horror fiction with a strong Faustian theme... In modern times, the book has been referred to as "one of the modern classics of Western literature.
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Note added at 2 days7 hrs (2007-02-05 21:20:08 GMT)
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"slipping away" instead of "disappearing" may be better at containing the allegory.
The novel tells of a young man named Dorian Gray, the subject of a painting by artist Basil Hallward. Dorian is convinced, through a series of encounters, that beauty is the only thing worth pursuing, and because his newly painted portrait reflects his beauty, he cries out, wishing that the portrait Basil has painted of him would age rather than himself. Dorian's wish is fulfilled, subsequently plunging him into a sequence of debauched acts. The portrait serves as a reminder of the effect each act has upon his soul, each sin being displayed as a new sign of ageing on the portrait.
The Picture of Dorian Gray is considered one of the last works of classic gothic horror fiction with a strong Faustian theme... In modern times, the book has been referred to as "one of the modern classics of Western literature.
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Note added at 2 days7 hrs (2007-02-05 21:20:08 GMT)
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"slipping away" instead of "disappearing" may be better at containing the allegory.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Ann Nosova
1 hr
|
Thanks Ann!
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disagree |
Marianna Staroselsky
: I'm from the States myself, and although I recognize the name "Dorian Gray" I don't not know the story. I think most Americans haven't actually read the story nor do they know what it's about. Literary imagery?
6 hrs
|
Clearly your reading could use some improvement; perhaps then you will qualify to comment on literary imagery questions. Can you say "vindictive"?
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50 mins
Their freedom was vanishing before their eyes like Cinderella's gown at the strike of midnight.
A fairytale twist.. :)
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Note added at 9 hrs (2007-02-03 23:51:40 GMT)
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More thoughts:
Their freedom was slipping away like a wish upon a falling star.
or
Their freedom was dying like the last embers of a fading campfire.
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Note added at 2 days8 hrs (2007-02-05 22:59:46 GMT)
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Another thought, the Great Gatsby is on many American high school reading lists... http://www.vocabulary.com/VUctgreatG.html
So another possibility for something that would probably be recognized by more people:
Fading like Gatsby's facade.
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Note added at 9 hrs (2007-02-03 23:51:40 GMT)
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More thoughts:
Their freedom was slipping away like a wish upon a falling star.
or
Their freedom was dying like the last embers of a fading campfire.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days8 hrs (2007-02-05 22:59:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Another thought, the Great Gatsby is on many American high school reading lists... http://www.vocabulary.com/VUctgreatG.html
So another possibility for something that would probably be recognized by more people:
Fading like Gatsby's facade.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Olga Cartlidge
: I like the imagery but I think it should be "at the stroke of midnight."
8 hrs
|
Thanks and you're right, it should be "stroke."
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disagree |
Tevah_Trans
: Shagrenevaya kozha shrank slowly, Cinderella's gown disappeared immediately. In the US they don't even care about a gown, they usually talk about her carriage turning into a pumpkin. Literary imagery isn't where it needs to be. Sorry.
2 days 12 mins
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