Domini Lucas Dec 27, 2018:

@airmailpl @asker “que depende da sorte, do destino” is the reason for much of my hesitancy re “casual” in English. I find “que depende da sorte, do destino” stronger than “unplanned/by chance” and think this could be an important nuance in the Source Text. Hairsplitting to a degree, I know. Because I think poetry is also about conveying a mood. I have no issue re “casual” on one-to-one accuracy alone.

airmailrpl Dec 27, 2018:

Casual -- Português Casual - Dicio, Dicionário Online de Português
https://www.dicio.com.br/casual/
Significado de Casual no Dicio, Dicionário Online de Português. O que é casual: adj. Que depende do acaso, da sorte, do destino; não planejado:

airmailrpl Dec 27, 2018:

casual ca·su·al
/ˈkaZHo͞oəl/
adjective
adjective: casual

relaxed and unconcerned.
synonyms: relaxed, friendly, informal, unceremonious, easygoing, free and easy; informallaid-back

made or done without much thought or premeditation.
"a casual remark"
synonyms: offhand, spontaneous, unpremeditated, unthinking, unconsidered, impromptu, throwaway, unguarded; informaloff-the-cuff

done or acting in a desultory way.

synonyms: cursory, perfunctory, superficial, passing, fleeting; More
hasty, brief, quick

done or acting without sufficient care or thoroughness.
synonyms: indifferent, apathetic, uncaring, unconcerned; More
lackadaisical, blasé, nonchalant, insouciant, offhand, flippant;
easygoing, free and easy, blithe, carefree, devil-may-care

Domini Lucas Dec 27, 2018:

@asker re casual You are, of course, right that, technically, the dictionary definitions of “casual” include both meanings. Having looked again I have found them in both the Oxford and Collins online dictionaries (I am not sure why the Collins didn’t flag up “by chance, without planning” for me last time). However, I still feel that, were I to read “casual cries/shouts” in an English version of this poem without the context of this discussion, my native “ear” would immediately interpret casual as “relaxed/informal” in this setting and miss the nuances that are there in the original. But that is only one native’s reaction. I have scrolled about for synonyms and still feel that, to my ear, @Katarina’s “random” renders more of the flavour of the original than casual or other options I can find. Other than that it could imply a slight “wildness”. Sorry not to be more help. Hope you had a good Christmas.

Oliver Simões (asker) Dec 26, 2018:

@All Thank you for your answers and insights. When I hear "grito casual" in PT, I think of something occasional and/or by chance. By comparing the definitions between the two languages, at first it seems like there is a one-to-one correspondence. I'm just trying to understand why "casual" would be inappropriate.

casual: Que depende do acaso; que acontece ou aconteceu sem planejamento; EVENTUAL; FORTUITO; OCASIONAL (Aulete)
casual: subject to, resulting from, or occurring by chance (Merriam-Webster)

PS: Actually, it seems like the PT definition is wider in scope. Any particular word in English that conveys both meanings? (by chance + occasional)

Katarina Peters Dec 24, 2018:

... or just skip "here and there"

Katarina Peters Dec 24, 2018:

@Domini Agree with your comments. Perhaps "an odd cry here and there" ...? but that would be too long...

Domini Lucas Dec 24, 2018:

@Katerina re your comment: difficult not to with poetry sometimes...

Domini Lucas Dec 24, 2018:

@all On further reflection, for reasons already specified, I therefore think “random” conveys more of the original than “casual”. However @asker, I think “gritos” was primarily what you were asking about? I can’t say agree to “screams” as I think it adds an emotion to the original hence my “neutral” @Katarina.

Domini Lucas Dec 24, 2018:

@asker am also wondering whether “cries” or “shouts” (in the plural), might flow better in English. Providing it is not adding too much to the ST.
i.e. sth like “the casual cries of those who don’t know of my existence” (though I think that sentence can be improved).

Domini Lucas Dec 24, 2018:

@airmailrpl In answer to your question, part of reason for my comment re “casual” is because I’m not 100% sure there is not a double meaning implied. But would need to do more research and been answering “on the fly”. Your first link mentions “que depende do acaso, da sorte, do destino” as well as “informal”. To my mind both of these might be important in the original. But I don’t see “que depende do acaso” in the English “casual” which here I think would couple “informal” with “not taking, or seeming to take much interest” (2nd meaning in Cambridge Online Dictionary). I feel that “depende do acaso...” is also there in the ST and is lost by using casual in English. However, the alliteration of “c’s” has an appeal.