Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Italian term or phrase:
mal sospinto
English translation:
those advocating evil
Added to glossary by
BdiL
Jun 25 11:49
4 mos ago
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Italian term
Australia
mal sospinto
Italian to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
post-war poem
The context is a handwritten poem (1945) and the immediate context is some advice the poet gives the post-war world on how to behave: "se la pietade astretta hai nell'oblio,/non chiederla ai tribuni ai mal sospinti".
I understand the general meaning of "mal sospinto" as an involuntary wrongdoer, but I don't understand it in combination with "tribuni"; I suspect it's a saying with a quite specific meaning. I'm hoping someone can enlighten me on that, which might also point me in the direction of a neat (and poetic) English meaning. Thanks in advance. Isobel Grave
I understand the general meaning of "mal sospinto" as an involuntary wrongdoer, but I don't understand it in combination with "tribuni"; I suspect it's a saying with a quite specific meaning. I'm hoping someone can enlighten me on that, which might also point me in the direction of a neat (and poetic) English meaning. Thanks in advance. Isobel Grave
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 | those advocating evil |
BdiL
|
| 3 | The ill- disposed |
Andrew Bramhall
|
Change log
Jun 28, 2024 10:13: BdiL Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
1 day 3 hrs
Selected
those advocating evil
I feel this poem is quite pompous, also considering the theme. And cryptically elaborated. However, this is it, and translation is needed.
Martini's explanation is quite to the point, also concerning a missing comma. (BTW, I believe she's a girl.)
Were I to paraphrase it in English, this is my attempt:
If you confined compassion into oblivion, do not exact it from hardened military leaders or those advocating evil.
MAu
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Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2024-06-26 15:12:38 GMT)
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***
I forgot.
A valid alternative is that "ai mal sospinti" be a terrible ellyptic construction meaning "a coloro che vengono spinti al male". But this has already aptly been mentioned by isobel Grave herself with "those incited to wrongdoing". M.
Martini's explanation is quite to the point, also concerning a missing comma. (BTW, I believe she's a girl.)
Were I to paraphrase it in English, this is my attempt:
If you confined compassion into oblivion, do not exact it from hardened military leaders or those advocating evil.
MAu
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2024-06-26 15:12:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
***
I forgot.
A valid alternative is that "ai mal sospinti" be a terrible ellyptic construction meaning "a coloro che vengono spinti al male". But this has already aptly been mentioned by isobel Grave herself with "those incited to wrongdoing". M.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Dear Bdil,
Thank you for this lucid summary of the complex expression and for the suggested English version. You are right, the author of the original is pompous (and convoluted), but he is able to lose these qualities in the translation! Thanks again.
Ísobel
"
2 hrs
Andrew Bramhall
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
Flair and accuracy tailored to your text
Native in: English 
Works in: Spanish to English, German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
The ill- disposed
If you have abstracted mercy in a state of oblivion, don't plead your case before the tribunal of the ill-disposed;
It's highly abstract, and it is only my reading, but the thrust seems to be that whatever is inside your head, probably best to keep it here rather than telling the world and his wife, where it might not receive such a favourable reception. Others may well see it differently.
It's highly abstract, and it is only my reading, but the thrust seems to be that whatever is inside your head, probably best to keep it here rather than telling the world and his wife, where it might not receive such a favourable reception. Others may well see it differently.
Note from asker:
| Thanks for your suggestion, Andrew, but I don't feel that "mal sospinti" corresponds to "ill-disposed". I think it has more the sense of "incited" to wrongdoing as Martini suggested in his last comment. |
Reference comments
1 hr
Reference:
tribuno
3. fig. Con connotazione polemica (acquisita in seguito al recupero delle denominazioni delle cariche romane durante la rivoluzione francese), uomo politico di idee rivoluzionarie e dotato di un’oratoria violenta e trascinatrice; in senso spreg., politicante che si comporta e parla in modo demagogico: un’oratoria, un’eloquenza, un discorso da tribuno.
https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/tribuno/?search=tribuno/
2. (fig., spreg.) [uomo politico che usa le proprie capacità oratorie per fini demagogici] ≈ arruffapopoli, (spreg.) capopopolo, caporione, demagogo, (non com.) masaniello, (spreg.) politicante.
https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/tribuno_(Sinonimi-e-Cont...
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Note added at 20 hrs (2024-06-26 08:39:33 GMT)
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secondo me sono separati
ai tribuni, ai malsospinti
tribuno qui ha una connotazione dispregiativa, il tribuno era anche una figura militare (army/commanding officer)
qui intendo che i tribuni aizzano/incitano i soldati alla guerra, al male
https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/tribuno/?search=tribuno/
2. (fig., spreg.) [uomo politico che usa le proprie capacità oratorie per fini demagogici] ≈ arruffapopoli, (spreg.) capopopolo, caporione, demagogo, (non com.) masaniello, (spreg.) politicante.
https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/tribuno_(Sinonimi-e-Cont...
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Note added at 20 hrs (2024-06-26 08:39:33 GMT)
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secondo me sono separati
ai tribuni, ai malsospinti
tribuno qui ha una connotazione dispregiativa, il tribuno era anche una figura militare (army/commanding officer)
qui intendo che i tribuni aizzano/incitano i soldati alla guerra, al male
Note from asker:
| Thanks for this, Martini. But in what way would atrinuno be advocating for a "a mal sospinto? |
| sorry, I meant a "tribuno". Isobel |
| Reading your further note on the meaning of "tribuno" as a military figure, and mal sospinti in the context of soldiers incited to war and the like, I think this is very plausible. Thanks for this, Martini. |
Discussion
Placa, implacato, i deleteri istinti/ se la pietade astretta hai nell'oblio/non chiederla ai tribuni ai mal sospinti". From the responses so far, the phrase is obviously not part of a common saying, and it seems like there's no agreement with my idea of ïnvoluntary wrongdoing. It was just suggested outside this forum that it might be related to post-war justifications of war crimes as involuntary. Do you think so? Isobel
Please could we have the surrounding text.