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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
Jan 23, 2020 15:53
4 yrs ago
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Italian term

che di quegl’immobili del Fiammingo

Italian to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting 17th century art criticism: Malvasia on Guido Reni
"provederlo abbondantemente d’altri Amorini, che di quegl’immobili del Fiammingo, e dell’Algardi, che pendenti si vedono ornar le pareti a’ Pittori"

My effort so far: "provided him with an abundance of other Cupids ....???....the Fleming, and Algardi, that are seen hanging as decorations on the walls of painters"

"Il Fiammingo" and "Algardi" are two painters, contemporaries of Guido Reni. I am finding it difficult to construct the rest of the quotation.
References
More context
Author and English Translation

Discussion

Neptunia Jan 24, 2020:
both...and... Oh, right. That fits perfectly here. I couldn't quite make it out before. If anyone doubts Duquesnoy's skill, check out Cupid carving. He's got great toddler concentration: https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/cupid-carving-his-bo...
Tom in London (asker) Jan 24, 2020:
Thanks so far... ...to everyone for these interesting comments. Rereading Malvasia's text this morning with fresh eyes, it occurs to me that he was saying something like "both those fixed ones by the Fleming and Algardi, and the ones you see hanging on the walls in the workshops of painters, as decoration" - but I'm still working on it.
Neptunia Jan 24, 2020:
immobile There was more than one Fleming at work around Guido Reni and all were called il Fiammingo. I thought it might be Denis Calvaert too, but it makes more sense if it is a sculptor. This Francois/Francesco Duquesnoy comes up paired with Algardi in the context of sculpted Amorini in Albani's biography (in multiple old English language versions on Google Books). I'm abandoning the idea that immobili referenced built art (like beni culturali immobili) but it doesn't mean lifeless - - that is too negative. These were vivacious sculptures. Maybe just immobile? Or still?
https://books.google.it/books?id=dgsrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA330&dq=fr...
Barbara Carrara Jan 24, 2020:
Neptunia - Re. Fiammingo Where does the name François Duquesnoy come about? To my understanding, 'Il Fiammingo' mentioned here is in fact Denys Calvaert ( https://www.dorotheum.com/en/l/4662632/ ), who 'after 1572, [...] opened a painting school in Bologna, his most prominent students being Domenichino, Guido Reni, and Francesco Albani. In his compostions, the Fleming Calvaert, or Dionisio Fiammingo, who spent the major part of his life in Italy, combined the powerful colours of Flemish Mannerists with a multitude of Italian influences.' (Source: link).
See also: http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/calvart-denis-detto-dion...
philgoddard Jan 24, 2020:
I agree with Marco that it probably means lifeless.
I'm still not clear who Il Fiammingo is. It could be the sculptor Duquesnoy, who was a contemporary of Reni, or a number of other painters. But it doesn't really matter for the purposes of your translation.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiammingo
Neptunia Jan 23, 2020:
a further thought so Il Fiammingo (Francois Duquesnoy) made sculptural reliefs (the immobili part) that were popularized in painted form (the hanging on the walls of painters part)
for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Playing_with_a_Goat
Neptunia Jan 23, 2020:
Marco is right - Amorini are his kids/models I found a biographical dictionary entry that repeats that line: His pictures are celebrated for their beautiful Amorini, painted from his own children, of whom he had twelve by his second wife, Doralice Fioravanti; these children were also the frequent study of the sculptors Algardi and Fiammingo.
immobili literally means unmovables and can be used for fresco/wall-paintings or maybe some generic term like "constructions" or "works"... or sculptural reliefs?
Marco Solinas Jan 23, 2020:
To Asker Most likely you have already figured this out, but here is my understanding: The biography of Francesco Albani says that his wife gave him numerous children who were cupids quite different from the lifeless putti found in the shops of other painters. I am presuming that Albani used his children (rather than statuettes) as models.
Tom in London (asker) Jan 23, 2020:
yes but Yes but I don't know that and have no way of finding out about the workshop of that other (Flemish) painter. The text was written in Bologna in 1678. My problem is understanding what it means in modern-speak.
Fiona Grace Peterson Jan 23, 2020:
What are these Flemish painters' works like? If you know that, it might help you arrive at the meaning of "immobili".
Tom in London (asker) Jan 23, 2020:
YEs but Yes - as I explained before, "il Fiammingo" was a Flemish painter. That wasn't my question.
Fiona Grace Peterson Jan 23, 2020:
Fiammingo Doesn't "il Fiammingo" refer to a Flemish painter?

Reference comments

23 mins
Reference:

More context

http://books.google.com/books?id=4oVAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA153&lpg=P...’altri+Amorini&source=bl&ots=tIMjKuUwBS&sig=ACfU3U3rW3hO16k9-DI62st3tgB7fY8fmw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwju37P2jprnAhUFSK0KHaqPB6oQ6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=provederlo%20abbondantemente%20d’altri%20Amorini&f=false

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Note added at 55 mins (2020-01-23 16:48:59 GMT)
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Could it mean motionless?
Note from asker:
È sempre Malvasia a riportare come le botteghe degli artisti fossero sempre provviste di modelli in terracotta o gesso di putti, un soggetto popolarissimo nel Seicento, tanto per opere autonome quanto come complemento di storie religiose o pale d’altare. Nella biografia di Francesco Albani si legge come la moglie di questi seppe "provederlo abbondantemente d’altri Amorini, che di quegl’immobili del Fiammingo, e dell’Algardi, che pendenti si vedono ornar le pareti a’ Pittori"
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2 hrs
Reference:

Author and English Translation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Cesare_Malvasia

Apparently, at least some of the volumes have been translated into English (info copied and pasted from above link):
Elizabeth Cropper et al., Carlo Cesare Malvasia’s Felsina pittrice: Lives of the Bolognese Painters. Volume 1, Early Bolognese Painting; Volume 2 part 2: Life of Marcantonio Raimondi and Critical Catalogue of Prints by or after Bolognese Masters in two volumes; and Volume 13: Lives of Domenichino and Francesco Gessi (Washington, DC: Center for the Advanced Study in the Visual Arts, 2013-2017).

Here's some more info,
'This richly illustrated volume provides a translation and critical edition of the opening part of the Felsina pittrice, which focuses on the art of late medieval Bologna.'
http://www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-978...

A search for Carlo Cesare Malvasia on the OPAC (On-line Public Access Catalog of the Italian National Library Service) provides information about the translated volumes and where hard copies can be found,
https://tinyurl.com/uzng977

And this is what you get from the British Library website,
https://tinyurl.com/tkgdnbu

Hope this helps.
In bocca al lupo!

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Note added at 3 hrs (2020-01-23 18:59:49 GMT)
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Thing is, and I know you already know this, if an English translation already exists, then you have to use that (incl. refs), rather than 'a modern Italian' rendition.
To know what Malvasia meant, one would need to delve deeper into the volume, which I'm afraid would require quite some time and effort...
Note from asker:
Yes yes, I know. (I do do my research...) I have access to the full English translation of Malvasia's "Life of Guido". But the citation I'm asking about here is elsewhere in Malvasia's "Felsina Pittrice" (to which I do not have access). All I need is for some kind native Italian colleague to render Malvasia's words into modern Italian !
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral philgoddard : It's simply not true that if a translation already exists, you have to use it. This is a common misconception on ProZ, and I must admit I believed it in my early days as a translator.
3 hrs
I beg to differ, Phil, and it has nothing to do with ProZ, as bibliographic citations have existed long before ProZ was even conceived. This said, of course, T. may paraphrase the excerpt in his translation, about which he has provided no info..
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