Björn Vrooman Jul 3, 2018:

This sounds oddly hostile.

"As I linked below, it is called a pickup in English, whether installed on a guitar or a record player. We don't use a verb."

I don't see how I misinterpreted the statement below. But thanks for the clarification.

PS
Forget about the mic examples for a moment. Even if you limit quotes to pickups, you'll get:
"The most basic acoustic pickup is the soundboard transducer, which sticks to the face of the guitar to pick up the vibrations through the top."
https://www.guitarfella.com/best-guitar-pickups/acoustic

"The pickups are there to pick up the sound just like a microphone picks up a vocalist."
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/guitar-pickups-dont-m...

"The transducer is unable to pick up the overtones, ambience, and true acoustic..."
http://www.strumviews.com/blog/which-pickup-should-i-put-my-...

"Since it is not possible to pick up a nylon string magnetically..."
https://www.lakewood-guitars.com/pickup_systems_past_ss.php

"The role of a pick up is simple. They pick up the sound produced by the guitar and create an electric signal which then..."
https://guitarlisty.com/best-electric-guitar-reviews

Best

Herbmione Granger Jul 3, 2018:

Seriously? I meant, we don't *use* a verb the same way as in this situation.
Isn't English wonderful? :)

Björn Vrooman Jul 3, 2018:

"We don't use a verb."

You definitely do.

"Most are built-in to a guitar or a resonator and some are made to pick up the sound of your acoustic instrument that has no pickup previously installed into it."
https://www.myerspickups.com/blog/2017/8/9/august-28-2017-my...

"An acoustic guitar tuner will have a built in mic to pick up the sound."
https://guitarsecrets.com/guitar_lessons/guitar tuning.htm

"This is the pickup selector switch, and it lets you choose which pickup on your guitar you would like to use to pick up the sound vibrations."
https://takelessons.com/live/guitar/parts-of-a-guitar

"Let's explore how mic choice and placement affect the sound you
pick up from a variety of acoustic instruments."
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0247/3799/files/How_Mic_Pl...

"...simply playing towards the mic and letting it pick up the sound for the PA or amplifier."
http://www.chandlerbluesband.com/blog/2015/5/26/gear-part-ii...

"...allow you to still hear both notes and be better able to pick up the oscillations..."
https://sixstringacoustic.com/how-to-tune-a-guitar-illustrat...

Herbmione Granger Jul 3, 2018:

This isn't a rewrite. A literal translation doesn't work.

Where the term comes from:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammophon
Die Blütezeit erlebte das Grammophon gegen Ende der 1920er Jahre, danach wurden Schallplatten zunehmend elektrisch abgenommen und über einen elektrischen Verstärker wiedergegeben. Von verschiedenen Herstellern wurden ab dieser Zeit auch Sets angeboten, mit denen ein Grammophon zur elektrischen Tonabnahme umgebaut werden konnte; entweder ersetzte man dabei lediglich die Schalldose durch einen elektrischen Abnehmer oder montierte einen kompletten zusätzlichen Tonarm.

As I linked below, it is called a pickup in English, whether installed on a guitar or a record player. We don't use a verb.

Björn Vrooman Jul 3, 2018:

PS "Sowohl Großmembran- als auch Kleimembran-Kondensatormikrofone eignen sich zur Abnahme von Akustikgitarren."
https://www.thomann.de/de/onlineexpert_page_akustikgitarre_a...

Yes, it's a mic here, but, again, that isn't the point. This has little do with you not being able to use the same word in every instance. It just doesn't mean what people seem to assume it means.

So if you want to rewrite this piece, fine with me (and "amplify your playing" is indeed an interesting phrase). I'm just keeping an eye on the glossary, since I find it useful (from time to time).

Best

Björn Vrooman Jul 3, 2018:

Third, of course, you can translate the rest of the sentence and then guess what fits the context. As I said, that's OK as an editor (if you can talk to the author, that is), but it's not necessarily a translation.

Here you got your amplify examples:
https://www.kirstein.de/Akustikgitarre-Tonabnehmer
https://www.musiker-board.de/threads/akustik-gitarre-verstae...

They say "verstärken" because there's no reason for a German to use "abnehmen" instead.

By contrast: "Bauteil an elektrisch verstärkten Musikinstrumenten, welches zur Abnahme des Klanges dient."
http://www.gitarrenunterricht-in-darmstadt.de/Glossar.html

That's why it's called "pickup." And, straight from the horse's mouth:
https://www.thomann.de/de/onlineexpert_page_gitarrenzubehoer...

You are probably going to hit me over the head with the third example there because it says "elektrisch verstärkbar machen"; but that's where "verstärkbar" was used, not "abnehmbar"; see also the ex. above.

As soon as it gets to "Ampabnahme" (cf https://www.thomann.de/de/mikrofone_fuer_ampabnahme.html ) and the like, "amplify" is clearly nonsensical.

Best wishes

Björn Vrooman Jul 3, 2018:

First, I don't understand why this is being relitigated. I thought we could leave it at, "We agree to disagree."

Moreover, you should be able to remember the verso question, where I didn't even disagree with your answer, really, and made your options part of the glossary entry.

I can't do that here because I have a bad feeling that it'll be unhelpful in nearly all situations. As you well know, I don't care about the points.

Second, I still think we're talking past each other. Whether you or anyone else approves of these statements and whether someone used amplify + sound in combination is not the point and it wasn't a few days ago either. See the ostrich example, where I, as a biologist (just an example), could say both statements (flightless + wings to stabilize while running) are true. That doesn't mean they are the same. Likewise, abnehmen and amplify aren't either.

[...]

Herbmione Granger Jul 3, 2018:

Looks familiar https://reverb.com/p/taylor-455ce-12-string-jumbo-acoustic-g...
The Taylor Expression System will amplify your playing in a natural way, making the Taylor 455ce great for acoustic playing and for plugging in.

https://reverb.com/item/2726292-washburn-dk20cet-acoustic-el...
The Washburn DK20CET Dreadnought Acoustic-Electric Guitar features the Washburn WT-82 acoustic-electric preamp and a piezo bridge pickup to amplify your playing with great tone.

https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/fender-cc-140sce-concert-electro...
this powerful little Preamp allows you to sculpt the tone and sound you want - helping you to amplify your playing as accurately as possible - making the Fender CC-140SCE the ideal budget-friendly acoustic guitar for aspiring players, seasoned guitarists and everyone in between

I, a guitar player and owner (electric and acoustic, no hybrids), approve these messages (preferring faithfully over accurately). I suppose a performer who likes to move around while playing would be interested in something like this.

For recording: https://www.soundandrecording.de/tutorials/recording-e-gitar...

Herbmione Granger Jul 1, 2018:

Keeping it Wiki (easy but risky) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Gitarre
Eine Elektrische Gitarre (auch E-Gitarre, Elektro-Gitarre oder Stromgitarre genannt) ist eine für elektrische Tonabnahme entwickelte Gitarre. Sie setzt im Gegensatz zur akustischen Gitarre nicht primär auf einen akustischen Klangkörper zur Verstärkung der Saitenschwingungen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_guitar
An electric guitar is a guitar that uses one or more pickups to convert the vibration of its strings into electrical signals. The vibration occurs when a guitarist strums, plucks, fingerpicks, or taps the strings. The pickup used to sense the vibration generally uses electromagnetic induction to do so, though other technologies exist. In any case, the signal generated by an electric guitar is too weak to drive a loudspeaker, so it is sent to a guitar amplifier before being sent to the speaker/speakers, which converts it into audible sound.

Herbmione Granger Jul 1, 2018:

Here's a clean translation You can electromechanically transduce the sound.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_cartridge

Or pick up the sound (which I addressed earlier).
http://www.thomas-wilhelm.net/veroeffentlichung/E-Gitarre.pd...
Eine abwechselnde Hin- und Wegbewegung von Eisen vor der Spule erzeugt ein in der Stärke wechselndes Magnetfeld und damit eine Wechselspannung mit der gleichen Frequenz, mit der die Saite schwingt. Der Tonabnehmer ist damit als ein Bewegungssensor *anzusehen*, der eine mechanische Schwingung in eine elektrische Spannung umsetzt.

Björn Vrooman Jul 1, 2018:

From your link:
"The 6.35mm plug can be plugged into sound equipment such as a guitar amplifier, mixer (line in, instrument in or unbalanced in),..."

"Abnehmen" (almost) never means amplify. By contrast, here's another amp ex.: "If you want to capture the sound of your live guitar amp, you can use a condenser..."
https://www.reidys.com/blog/recording-music-at-home-the-esse...

"'Capture the sound' could be confused with recording it."
Two days ago, I said, "Ofc, you can also do that with a mic and, ofc, you would have to add something..."

You could've done what you'd call Trick 17 in German (as was apparent in the example I gave). Something like: You don't need a mic to capture the sound of your guitar. Keeps it sufficiently vague.

Else, I'd have used Graeme's suggestion. Using amplify will already clash with the next sentence in the review and the pickup is nowhere to be found.

What was done here is akin to solving a crossword puzzle, which is fine if you're a (sub)editor. But it has little do with translation. You might've as well said it's a black guitar. That's true but that wasn't the point. However, what's done is done.

Best

Herbmione Granger Jul 1, 2018:

Another suggestion for the review It's also equipped with a sophisticated pickup system in case you want to amplify your playing.

"Capture the sound" could be confused with recording it. But you are not really doing *anything* to the sound unless the guitar is plugged in :)

For the sax player: http://piezobarrel.com/instructions.htm

Björn Vrooman Jun 29, 2018:

Yes,... ...ladies. The gentlemen just came out of hiding =)

Ofc, you can also do that with a mic and, ofc, you would have to add something to make "capture" work, as was done here: https://noviceguitar.com/acoustic-guitar-pickups-an-importan...

I won't disagree if you want to specifically name the things that this is about. In fact, I posted the Wiki link about Tonabnehmer almost a day ago. And I did look at that review. As you can see, I didn't post a suggestion.

I don't consider this "academic"; I merely said I won't disagree but I don't see the need to change so much.

Last one:
"In dem Fall den du beschreibst könnte ich ja aber auch einfach gleich während dem Spielen vom Amp den Sound abnehmen."
https://gitarrenboard.de/printthread.php?tid=28498

Used to be a Sax player if that counts for anything.

Enjoy the sunny day

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 29, 2018:

@Graeme It's all fun and games, actually, at least for me. And you're right that the integrated pickup is a technical perk for amplification (hahahahaha)

Herbmione Granger Jun 29, 2018:

Ladies? The gentlemen, except for Michael, have also interpreted it. And I agree with ALL of them, although perhaps not all the explanations. Again, I prefer "equipped for amplification."
Capturing the sound is a good phrase to have under your belt. However, it would sound very strange with the surrounding text. Also, I can capture the sound with an external mic.
And yes, we are all saying that it does what an acoustic-electric guitar is expected to do. And we are suggesting what we expect/would like to see here in the translated text.

Erik Freitag Jun 29, 2018:

@Graeme Hear, hear!

Graeme Currie Jun 29, 2018:

Please look at the source It's clearly a review. What does it tell the reader? This instrument sounds okay (in its price bracket). It's a bit tinny, but it's okay. The built-in pickup and preamp are also useful.

The function of the passage in question is just to mention that this is an electro-acoustic guitar. Getting hung up on the precise rendering of 'abnehmen' without considering the function of the word in the text is pretty academic. Both 'capture' and 'amplify' are decent translations of 'abnehmen' in the right context, but here they would not fit as far as I can see, because the purpose and function of the text is to give the reader information about the product, and they don't do that (and I humbly submit that my proposal (mentioning the built-in pickup and preamplifier) does.

Björn Vrooman Jun 29, 2018:

You were too fast. I had to edit my posts a bit. I hate that this d-box window is so small -.-

Removed the second "context"; what I meant was that the meaning of the word doesn't change whether it's about a tuning device, a pickup or an amp. We're still talking about music. I wasn't saying you could use it for a piece about Weight Watchers.

In any case, duty calls; OK, more like family duties this time.

But I hope all of you have an enjoyable weekend

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 29, 2018:

Capture is nice, but the purpose of capturing is to amplify.

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 29, 2018:

@Björn "BTW, I never said it was about a tuning device in this context; that was merely to show that the meaning of the word doesn't change in a different context."

HUH?
Er wollte zehn Kilo abnehmen.
Er hat die Mikros über eine DI-box abgenommen, am Mischpult angeschlossen und über die Boxen weitergegeben.
Ich war satt und könnte Ihr kein einzigen Stück Kuchen abnehmen.

Björn Vrooman Jun 29, 2018:

"Both mag and Piezo PUs tend to capture more of the string sound..."
https://ask.audio/articles/mixing-tips-how-to-improve-your-d...

"The magnetic pickup captures the strings and adds warmth while the omni-directional condenser mic conveys the instrument’s resonance, airiness, and..."
https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/how-to-ch...

"My research on pickups has led me to brands of bridgeplate pickups that I think do as well as can be done to accurately capture the sound of a guitar..."
http://www.bobgramann.com/pickups.html

"You don’t really get to capture the sound of the tone ring, the pot or the resonator."
http://www.mixdownmag.com.au/guide-recording-banjos

"You can place this pickup over the soundhole, and it will capture the vibrations from each string to give you a balanced sound."
https://sound-unsound.com/6-best-acoustic-guitar-pickups-com...

"They directly capture the sound of the instrument and convert it into an electrical signal which can then be amplified."
http://www.gamlinsmusic.co.uk/acoustic-guitar-pickups

Don't see much wrong with it.

Best wishes

Björn Vrooman Jun 29, 2018:

First off, none of this is meant to offend or something.

Look, ladies, I am in a nearly untenable situation: I don't like literal translations. I like "with the option of" but I was looking for something more "vague," since not everyone seems to be on board with either pickup or amplify. BTW, I never said it was about a tuning device in this context; that was merely to show that the meaning of the word doesn't change. Also, I don't see what energy this ST has; it's a technical term.

To put it another way:
I tell you that an ostrich is a flightless bird and your translation says that the ostrich uses wings to maintain its balance while running.

Both statements are true, but you did not translate what I said.

Likewise, abnehmen means you're on the receiving end.

[....]

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 29, 2018:

@herbalchemist BOATLOADS!

Herbmione Granger Jun 29, 2018:

Interpretation Fortunately, there are musicians here :)

Herbmione Granger Jun 29, 2018:

@Björn I didn't realize that you were referring to the link about a Stimmgerät. Yes, picking up the vibration and converting it to a signal is more appropriate there.

@Everyone While there are other things that could be done with the signal, I think that amplification is the main purpose of the pickups. Not sure, but I don't think that this type of guitar would be directly plugged into a recording device.

Herbmione Granger Jun 29, 2018:

Pick up the sound would be a very strange way of describing the phenomenon in English. You need to either lengthen or shorten the message:
-It's also equipped for amplification. (I'm favoring this one.)
-It has pickups. (Lacking the energy of the ST.)

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 29, 2018:

@Björn Like any term, it is not blanket-transferable. This is NOT about a tuning device, it is about the integrated pickups in the otherwise acoustic guitar, which, via said pickups, can also be amplified. Where did you get the idea it was about a tuning device????

Björn Vrooman Jun 29, 2018:

RE 1. This wasn't the point: In "Abnehmen des Amps," the "abnehmen" cannot be "amplify" and you well know that.

2. You're putting the cart before the horse. The point in this forum thread (just read it) is that there isn't any sound whatsoever because the signal is not getting through. You can amp it all you want. Nothing will happen.

3. Again as in 2; actually, in this case, it would be a severe mistranslation. See also the EN link.

Don't seem to be in disagreement about 4.

"This is less about semantics.."

If it were just about that. I haven't seen you do this before, but since someone else agrees, I will have to make it clear: You are altering the meaning of the text to make it fit your interpretation. Yes, what you're saying makes sense, but that isn't the point. We could talk about "render," but not about amplify.

There are so many links about this. It's already quite obvious here:
http://www.richieloidl.at/rider

Or:
https://gitarrenlehreronline.de/die-8-besten-tools-fuer-gita...

This is about a "Stimmgerät"(!!!). If you still want to tell me that Abnahme means amplify, then I don't know what to say.

Best wishes

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 29, 2018:

@Björn 1. Abnehmen des Amps = most certainly has to do with amplification of the stage sound over a DI-box or line-in, that brings the amp over the club speakers
2. Transferring the sound to which end? to amplify! (make louder/audible)
3. Again, the issue is amplification of the entire sound, hence the mike.
4. Yes, a recording situation as I thought.

It's less about semantics and more about what the pickups and pre-amp do.

Björn Vrooman Jun 28, 2018:

Ramey First, Erik did not say plug in the sound (but the guitar). Neither did I.

Second, you must be looking at different examples.

First one: "Abnehmen des Amps." Amplifying the amp, really?

Second: "Grafikkarte" This is about "Sound weitergeben" because the graphics card doesn't seem to support the option he wants. Nothing to do with amplify.

Third: "Bruchteil des ganzen Sounds...in seiner Gesamtheit abnehmen wollt." Again, nothing to do with amplify. It's about capturing the entire experience. Here's basically the EN version:
"Subsequently, a pick-up system will only capture a small element of the bigger picture; only a microphone can capture the true diversity an acoustic instrument and the room it’s in."
http://soundhub.audio/how-to-record-and-mix-acoustic-guitars

And, similar to the Rolling Stones link:
"Most people find that microphones capture the sound of their guitar more realistically than pickups, but pickups can be effective in some recording situations."
http://acousticguitar.com/recording-with-pickups

None of the examples are about amplifying. Where I do agree with you is that you don't have to change the text at all. Just keep it a bit less specific.

Best wishes

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 28, 2018:

I'm tempted to call my friends at Thomann and ask for this guy's number hihihi

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 28, 2018:

I mean, it's in the text... Bei einem XXXXXX-Preamp kann man ja nicht all zu viel falsch machen.

So there's an integrated pre-amp, what else could it be but amplify?

Erik Freitag Jun 28, 2018:

@Ramey Well done, you're almost there! Since any guitar can be amplified, this one stands out (kind of, that is) because it has an integrated pickup and preamp and can thus be plugged in.

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 28, 2018:

@Erik Any guitar can be amplified, that's not the point. What's so special about this guitar is
1. the resonance: Das Sustain ist gut und die Saitenlage erfüllt die "5-Cent-Regel" - d.h., wenn man ein 5-Cent-Stück auf die Bundstäbchen des 12. und 13. Bundes schiebt, sollte es keinen nennenswerten Abstand zwischen der Münze und der tiefen E-Seite geben.
2. the action: Das klappt und keine Saite schnarrt, auch wenn man etwas heftiger anschlägt. Bundrein ist die Gitarre ebenfalls: im 12. Bund gibt es praktisch keine Abweichungen, weder vom Hören her noch was die Anzeige des Stimmgeräts angeht.
3. the sound (for the price) Der Klang ist für den Preis völlig in Ordnung. Eine leichte Tendenz zu "blechern" aber noch im gut erträglichen Bereich.
Eine brauchbare Gitarre jedenfalls
(which can be amplified/electronically rendered over/onto another device (PA system, recording device, effect box/system...)

Erik Freitag Jun 28, 2018:

@Ramey Ramey, what would a guitar look like whose sound can not be amplified? What is it that makes this particular instrument practical in the eyes of the tester?

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 28, 2018:

EVERY ONE of these examples, except MAYBE the Rolling Stone link, is talking about amplification or, if you like, RENDERING of the sound. Most certainly not plugging in. The line out on a stage DI-box is a common solution in all clubs both great and small, but the sound is still amplified over the club speakers and the amp itself is used as a monitor.

Björn Vrooman Jun 28, 2018:

"Gerade in sehr kleinen Clubs, wo es auf jeden Meter Bühnenfläche ankommt könnte man sich ein Mikrostativ zur Abnahme des Amps sparen und das Signal über den sehr guten Line Out Sound abnehmen, während man den Speaker zur Bühnenbeschallung nutzt."
https://www.amazona.de/test-vox-ad30-vt-gitarrenverstaerker/...

"Meinst über die Grafikkarte den Sound abnehmen?"
https://www.computerbase.de/forum/threads/5-1-sound-am-pc.13...

"So fängt ein Tonabnehmer nur einen Bruchteil des ganzen Sounds ein. Wenn Ihr aber ein akustisches Instrument in seiner Gesamtheit abnehmen wollt, kommt Ihr an einem Mikrofon nicht vorbei."
https://www.shure.de/musiker/entdecken/informativ/akustikgit...

"Pete spielt seit etwa 10 Jahren Strats, die zusätzlich durch einen Piezo-artigen Tonabnehmer einen Sound abnehmen, der sehr Westerngitarren-nah ist."
http://forum.rollingstone.de/foren/topic/the-who-by-numbers/...

abnehmen = record, capture (also "einfangen," as in one of the examples above).

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonabnehmer

Whether you need an amplifier isn't the point.

Best

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 28, 2018:

You can't plug anything in without pickups and an amplifier. The guitar is definitely acoustic with integrated pickups, but in order to plug it in, you need an amplifier. "...a decent guitar in any case, with the option of amplifying the sound." I've been in the business about a hundred years. You can't plug in the sound, but you can amplify it.

Björn Vrooman Jun 28, 2018:

I don't think... ...the link should be posted. The asker didn't do that for a reason. It's easy to google.

But yes, thanks, I see that now. By the way, before I wrote this, I had wanted to agree with you and post references.

Doesn't change the fact that I think this change to the text is unnecessary. You will also find references to "Sound abnehmen" (I thought about "ab-/anzapfen" first) by pickups (or even microphones, but that's clearly not the case here) and this is a review. In essence, he could be talking about both options, regardless of the next sentence. Agree with you, though, that it's not amplify and that "pick up" wouldn't be a good option.

Best

Erik Freitag Jun 28, 2018:

The guitar can be plugged in We seem to be talking about this guitar:
https://www.thomann.de/de/harley_benton_eax_500tl_black.htm

It has a pickup alright, and an integrated preamp, so it can be plugged in, which is what "abnehmen" refers to in this case.

Björn Vrooman Jun 28, 2018:

The collocation is... ..."capture the sound." E.g.
http://www.theguitarmagazine.com/articles/how-to-record-elec...
http://www.theguitarmagazine.com/articles/how-to-record-acou...

It has a pickup (so you shouldn't use the verb too) and cannot be plugged in, as far as I could see.

Best

Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 28, 2018:

Hi Yuu Andou The guitar is acoustic, isn't it? So they're talking about amplifying it with pickup that first have to be installed?