Apr 23, 2013 16:29
11 yrs ago
German term
Germany
German to English Translator
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English
sprachgemeinschaftlich-rational
German to English
Social Sciences
Linguistics
and individuell-emotional.
This is not my field at all and I am struggling with some of these concepts.
Here is the sentence with the previous paragraph for context:
"Der Grund dafür liegt darin, dass Eigennamen, die ja anders als die Wörter des Normalwortschatzes (Gattungsnamen = Appellativa) eigentlich nichts „bedeuten“, sondern nur auf den Namenträger „verweisen“ (referieren), doch eine bestimmte Art von Bedeutung annehmen können. Anders nämlich als die Wörter des Normalwortschatzes haben die Eigennamen zwar keine „denotative“ (d. h. vom jeweiligen Sprecher und vom situativen Kontext unabhängige) Bedeutung im eigentlichen Sinne, doch können sie wie die Wörter des Normalwortschatzes eine
„konnotative“ (d. h. vom jeweiligen Sprecher assoziierbare und vom situativen Kontext abhängige) Bedeutung sehr wohl aufweisen.
Nach Hilgemann (1978, 385) setzt sich die ,Bedeutung‘ eines Eigennamens aus identifikatorischen, sprachgemeinschaftlich-rationalen und individuell-emotionalen Merkmalen zusammen."
This is my attempt:
"According to Hilgemann (1978:385), a proper name's 'meaning' is composed of traits that are identificatory, rational to the language community and emotional to the individual."
However, I am very much out of my comfort zone with this topic.
Thanks.
This is not my field at all and I am struggling with some of these concepts.
Here is the sentence with the previous paragraph for context:
"Der Grund dafür liegt darin, dass Eigennamen, die ja anders als die Wörter des Normalwortschatzes (Gattungsnamen = Appellativa) eigentlich nichts „bedeuten“, sondern nur auf den Namenträger „verweisen“ (referieren), doch eine bestimmte Art von Bedeutung annehmen können. Anders nämlich als die Wörter des Normalwortschatzes haben die Eigennamen zwar keine „denotative“ (d. h. vom jeweiligen Sprecher und vom situativen Kontext unabhängige) Bedeutung im eigentlichen Sinne, doch können sie wie die Wörter des Normalwortschatzes eine
„konnotative“ (d. h. vom jeweiligen Sprecher assoziierbare und vom situativen Kontext abhängige) Bedeutung sehr wohl aufweisen.
Nach Hilgemann (1978, 385) setzt sich die ,Bedeutung‘ eines Eigennamens aus identifikatorischen, sprachgemeinschaftlich-rationalen und individuell-emotionalen Merkmalen zusammen."
This is my attempt:
"According to Hilgemann (1978:385), a proper name's 'meaning' is composed of traits that are identificatory, rational to the language community and emotional to the individual."
However, I am very much out of my comfort zone with this topic.
Thanks.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 | etymologically rooted |
Lancashireman
|
| 3 +3 | rational associations with linguistic communities |
Michael Martin, MA
|
Proposed translations
56 mins
Selected
etymologically rooted
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=etymologi...
or
rooted in etymology
peculiar to the language community
rational (DE): for reasons of (EN)
individuell-emotional:
arousing emotions on an individual level, i.e. different connotations for different people
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:39:25 GMT)
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Looking at your previous Q, this does seem to be about the rights of language minorities. Consequently, my alternative suggestion (peculiar to the language community) might be more pertinent.
community-specific
rooted in the language spoken
etc
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:42:43 GMT)
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... but nothing to do with the English meaning of 'rational' = 'clarity of thought processes'.
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:54:24 GMT)
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In other words, I don't understand how a "rational association with a language community" might differ from an irrational one in this context.
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Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 18:15:40 GMT)
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language community or linguistic community?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_language_community
proz.com is a linguistically gifted community, a community of linguists, a linguistic community.
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Note added at 20 hrs (2013-04-24 13:15:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Michael has invited me to expand on my comment above.
1) ‘rational’ is not only a false cognate here; it is performing a filler role along the same lines as ‘-technisch’ in the following examples:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/insurance/326011...
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/tech_engineering...
The least sensible option is to blindly copy it across into the translation and expect it to make any sense to an English reader.
2) “According to Hilgemann, the ‘meaning’ of a name consists of elements that (a) identify the person or place, (b) are peculiar to the language community in which it is used and (c) call forth individual emotional responses.”
It is irrelevant what associations (rational or irrational) the name might arouse in members of other language communities (plural).
3) ‘Language’ and ‘linguistic’ are not freely interchangeable in conjunction with ‘community’.
It would have been helpful if the two voters so far had explained why they found the other version suitable for this context. Their ‘clicks’ have ensured that it will go through on the nod 14 days from now unless something else happens in the meantime.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2013-04-24 23:15:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Strange. Every time I post an addendum, someone clicks on 'rational associations with linguistic communities', sometimes with an 'ooh lala', sometimes with a smiley. At this rate, I expect it will be on +4 by tomorrow.
or
rooted in etymology
peculiar to the language community
rational (DE): for reasons of (EN)
individuell-emotional:
arousing emotions on an individual level, i.e. different connotations for different people
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:39:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Looking at your previous Q, this does seem to be about the rights of language minorities. Consequently, my alternative suggestion (peculiar to the language community) might be more pertinent.
community-specific
rooted in the language spoken
etc
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:42:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
... but nothing to do with the English meaning of 'rational' = 'clarity of thought processes'.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 17:54:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In other words, I don't understand how a "rational association with a language community" might differ from an irrational one in this context.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-04-23 18:15:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
language community or linguistic community?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_language_community
proz.com is a linguistically gifted community, a community of linguists, a linguistic community.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2013-04-24 13:15:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Michael has invited me to expand on my comment above.
1) ‘rational’ is not only a false cognate here; it is performing a filler role along the same lines as ‘-technisch’ in the following examples:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/insurance/326011...
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/tech_engineering...
The least sensible option is to blindly copy it across into the translation and expect it to make any sense to an English reader.
2) “According to Hilgemann, the ‘meaning’ of a name consists of elements that (a) identify the person or place, (b) are peculiar to the language community in which it is used and (c) call forth individual emotional responses.”
It is irrelevant what associations (rational or irrational) the name might arouse in members of other language communities (plural).
3) ‘Language’ and ‘linguistic’ are not freely interchangeable in conjunction with ‘community’.
It would have been helpful if the two voters so far had explained why they found the other version suitable for this context. Their ‘clicks’ have ensured that it will go through on the nod 14 days from now unless something else happens in the meantime.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2013-04-24 23:15:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Strange. Every time I post an addendum, someone clicks on 'rational associations with linguistic communities', sometimes with an 'ooh lala', sometimes with a smiley. At this rate, I expect it will be on +4 by tomorrow.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks Andrew. I went for 'peculiar to the language community' in the end. You make a good argument as to why 'rational' should not be translated as 'rational'. "
+3
1 hr
Michael Martin, MA
United States
United States
Native in German
&
English
Works in field
United States
Creativity wins in the long run
Native in: German (Variant: Germany) 
, English (Variant: US)
Works in: German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
16
rational associations with linguistic communities
Here's my working translation for the whole sentence:
"According to Hilgemann (1978, 385), the meaning of a proper name consists of identifying features, rational associations with linguistic communities and individual emotive meaning."
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Note added at 6 days (2013-04-30 04:22:55 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
Example of how the term "rational associations" is commonly used (for the uninitiated): "For example, the rational associations with Caterpillar may be around heavy construction equipment; the emotional associations may be with toughness and ruggedness, and the sensory associations may be yellow and black."
"According to Hilgemann (1978, 385), the meaning of a proper name consists of identifying features, rational associations with linguistic communities and individual emotive meaning."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 days (2013-04-30 04:22:55 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
Example of how the term "rational associations" is commonly used (for the uninitiated): "For example, the rational associations with Caterpillar may be around heavy construction equipment; the emotional associations may be with toughness and ruggedness, and the sensory associations may be yellow and black."
Note from asker:
| Thanks Michael. I went for Andrew's suggestion in the end, as he made a good argument as to why it shouldn't be 'rational' in the TT. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Ingeborg Gowans (X)
7 mins
|
|
Thanks, Ingeborg!
|
|
| agree |
Ramey Rieger (X)
: ooh lala!
1 hr
|
|
Danke, Ramey!
|
|
| neutral |
Lancashireman
: Why plural 'communities'? There are a couple of other reasons why I think this makes no sense (see below).
5 hrs
|
|
I'm a little slow on the uptake. Can you explain those reasons to me again..?
|
|
| agree |
Thayenga
: Singular. :)
21 hrs
|
| agree |
Horst Huber (X)
: My sense is, it would be "within" linguistic communities. And not restricted to one, intersections, overlaps occur.
1 day 8 hrs
|
| disagree |
Cilian O'Tuama
: "meaning consists of meaning" doesn't make much sense either. // It's not about what everybody understands. It's more about maintaining standards.
6 days
|
|
Makes at least as much sense as the rather strained attempt to discredit a straightforward concept which everybody understands except a select few.
|
Discussion