Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
robe à pouf
English translation:
pouf style bustle dress / bustle pad dress
Added to glossary by
Charles Davis
May 20, 2015 16:12
9 yrs ago
French term
robe à pouf
French to English
Other
Textiles / Clothing / Fashion
Historical fashion styles
Here I come again!
This is in a discussion about historical references in the work of a famous couturier of the post-War "New Look" period.
Among other features that have inspired this designer, the text mentions the bustles and wasp-waisted gowns from the Belle Époque.
The source text also mentions examples of certain fashion styles from earlier periods, including the 'crinolines de guerre' from 1916, the 'pourpoint à fraise' from the Renaissance, and this 'robe à pouf' by C.F. Worth.
Now from all the information I can find, this 'robe à pouf' appears to be just another style of dress with some kind of a bustle; can any of you experts out there please tell me if this is simply another name for the same thing (in my text, it doesn't appear in the same sentence, but quite close by, suggesting a deliberately different meaning was intended). Note that it is by Charles F. Worth, regarded by many as the forerunner of the modern notion of 'fashion' — I don't know if that menas his 'robe à pouf' was any different from the others, or simply that this was the expression he originally coined for it. As far as I can see, he may have been the first to use the bustle, as distinct from a full- or half-crinoline, so it may just be this was the term first used (in the mid 19th c.), before it was later renamed in the early 20th c.
This is in a discussion about historical references in the work of a famous couturier of the post-War "New Look" period.
Among other features that have inspired this designer, the text mentions the bustles and wasp-waisted gowns from the Belle Époque.
The source text also mentions examples of certain fashion styles from earlier periods, including the 'crinolines de guerre' from 1916, the 'pourpoint à fraise' from the Renaissance, and this 'robe à pouf' by C.F. Worth.
Now from all the information I can find, this 'robe à pouf' appears to be just another style of dress with some kind of a bustle; can any of you experts out there please tell me if this is simply another name for the same thing (in my text, it doesn't appear in the same sentence, but quite close by, suggesting a deliberately different meaning was intended). Note that it is by Charles F. Worth, regarded by many as the forerunner of the modern notion of 'fashion' — I don't know if that menas his 'robe à pouf' was any different from the others, or simply that this was the expression he originally coined for it. As far as I can see, he may have been the first to use the bustle, as distinct from a full- or half-crinoline, so it may just be this was the term first used (in the mid 19th c.), before it was later renamed in the early 20th c.
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +1 | pouf style bustle dress / bustle pad dress | Charles Davis |
5 | bustle gown | Christina Burrows |
Change log
Jun 3, 2015 07:46: Charles Davis Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+1
1 hr
Selected
pouf style bustle dress / bustle pad dress
I've been digging a little further and have come to the conclusion that although a robe à tournure and a robe à pouf are both bustle dresses or gowns, the difference between them, in so far as there is one, is the nature of the device worn under them. A tournure is a frame, like a crinoline but just at the back:
"elle est elle aussi [comme la crinoline] constituée d'un réseau de baleines métalliques horizontales, soutenues par des bandes verticales. Cependant, elle ne couvre plus que l'arrière"
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tournure
"A bustle is a type of framework used to expand the fullness or support the drapery of the back of a woman's dress, occurring predominantly in the mid-to-late 19th century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bustle
Whereas a pouf is a pad or cushion, often apparently stiffened with whalebone (pouf baleiné):
"Qu’est ce qu’une crinoline ? A l’origine un jupon d’étoffe raidie de crin, la crinoline devient en 1859 une cage armaturée de cerceaux métalliques dont le diamètre peut atteindre 180 cm. Sa forme évolue de ronde à projetée (volume vers l’arrière) pour se transformer en tournure ou en pouf (coussin sur les reins) à partir de 1867."
http://www.lyceumfrance.org/Exposition-au-Musee-Galliera,270
Note the date and compare the reference to Worth's innovation I quoted in the discussion: it may well be that his contribution was to use a cushion rather than a frame.
I think this distinction, such as it is, has become rather obscured. The Trésor doesn't seem to recognise this meaning of pouf, but its definition of tournure really covers both:
"Rembourrage porté sous la robe, en bas du dos, afin de lui donner plus d'ampleur."
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/tournure
What is interesting is that it illustrates this with a passage from Balzac dated 1846:
"Caroline marche à la Elssler, en agitant sa tournure de la façon la plus andalouse"
If Balzac is referring here to a bustle, clearly Worth didn't invent it; he presumably therefore introduced a different, softer, perhaps smaller type of bustle. But I'm speculating here.
My first suggestion comes from here:
"Cabinet card photo of a young woman in a high-neckline, pouf style bustle dress accented with velvet stripes circa late 1870's to the 1880's."
https://www.etsy.com/ie/listing/217091435/cabinet-card-photo...
The second is from here (sorry about the caps):
"THE PATTERN INCLUDES THE CIRCA 1883 BUSTLE PAD DRESS WITH OVERSKIRT, BUSTLE PAD, BACK DRAPE AND PLEATING AT THE HEMLINE"
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/17-18-antique-french-f...
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Note added at 1 hr (2015-05-20 17:53:58 GMT)
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I must admit that Littré, who is bang on the right period, doesn't distinguish a pouf from a tournure:
"SUPPLÉMENT AU DICTIONNAIRE
3. POUF. Ajoutez :
3° Sorte de tournure que les femmes se mettent par derrière.
• Quand tu seras juponnée un peu plus haut par derrière, avec un pouf convenable...., OCTAVE FEUILLET Rev. des Deux-Mondes, 1er mars 1872, p. 7."
http://littre.fracademic.com/54221/pouf
However, Guy Robert gives me a little more ammunition with this definition he quotes from "Ac8", presumably the 8th edition of the DAF:
"POUF
Se disait d'une coiffure de femme [those enormous Marie-Antoinette-style contraptions] et aussi d'une sorte de coussin de tournure, qui se plaçait par derrière, sous la jupe, au-dessous de la taille"
https://books.google.es/books?id=PxYEW56qVGgC&pg=PA1810&lpg=...
Note "coussin DE tournure": I take this to indicate that tournure is the generic word for bustles of all kinds and pouf is specifically the pad or cushion type.
"elle est elle aussi [comme la crinoline] constituée d'un réseau de baleines métalliques horizontales, soutenues par des bandes verticales. Cependant, elle ne couvre plus que l'arrière"
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tournure
"A bustle is a type of framework used to expand the fullness or support the drapery of the back of a woman's dress, occurring predominantly in the mid-to-late 19th century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bustle
Whereas a pouf is a pad or cushion, often apparently stiffened with whalebone (pouf baleiné):
"Qu’est ce qu’une crinoline ? A l’origine un jupon d’étoffe raidie de crin, la crinoline devient en 1859 une cage armaturée de cerceaux métalliques dont le diamètre peut atteindre 180 cm. Sa forme évolue de ronde à projetée (volume vers l’arrière) pour se transformer en tournure ou en pouf (coussin sur les reins) à partir de 1867."
http://www.lyceumfrance.org/Exposition-au-Musee-Galliera,270
Note the date and compare the reference to Worth's innovation I quoted in the discussion: it may well be that his contribution was to use a cushion rather than a frame.
I think this distinction, such as it is, has become rather obscured. The Trésor doesn't seem to recognise this meaning of pouf, but its definition of tournure really covers both:
"Rembourrage porté sous la robe, en bas du dos, afin de lui donner plus d'ampleur."
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/tournure
What is interesting is that it illustrates this with a passage from Balzac dated 1846:
"Caroline marche à la Elssler, en agitant sa tournure de la façon la plus andalouse"
If Balzac is referring here to a bustle, clearly Worth didn't invent it; he presumably therefore introduced a different, softer, perhaps smaller type of bustle. But I'm speculating here.
My first suggestion comes from here:
"Cabinet card photo of a young woman in a high-neckline, pouf style bustle dress accented with velvet stripes circa late 1870's to the 1880's."
https://www.etsy.com/ie/listing/217091435/cabinet-card-photo...
The second is from here (sorry about the caps):
"THE PATTERN INCLUDES THE CIRCA 1883 BUSTLE PAD DRESS WITH OVERSKIRT, BUSTLE PAD, BACK DRAPE AND PLEATING AT THE HEMLINE"
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/17-18-antique-french-f...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2015-05-20 17:53:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I must admit that Littré, who is bang on the right period, doesn't distinguish a pouf from a tournure:
"SUPPLÉMENT AU DICTIONNAIRE
3. POUF. Ajoutez :
3° Sorte de tournure que les femmes se mettent par derrière.
• Quand tu seras juponnée un peu plus haut par derrière, avec un pouf convenable...., OCTAVE FEUILLET Rev. des Deux-Mondes, 1er mars 1872, p. 7."
http://littre.fracademic.com/54221/pouf
However, Guy Robert gives me a little more ammunition with this definition he quotes from "Ac8", presumably the 8th edition of the DAF:
"POUF
Se disait d'une coiffure de femme [those enormous Marie-Antoinette-style contraptions] et aussi d'une sorte de coussin de tournure, qui se plaçait par derrière, sous la jupe, au-dessous de la taille"
https://books.google.es/books?id=PxYEW56qVGgC&pg=PA1810&lpg=...
Note "coussin DE tournure": I take this to indicate that tournure is the generic word for bustles of all kinds and pouf is specifically the pad or cushion type.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: I think you're right and that the "pouf" is the pad so you could say (padded) bustle dress/gown but I prefer "pouf-style bustle dress/gown
15 hrs
|
Many thanks :) "Padded" would be logical.
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks a lot, Charles!"
7 hrs
bustle gown
I agree with the other comments about what the "robe à pouf" is, ie. a dress with a bustle. If the text is historical and concerns haute couture, I find the word "gown" more elegant than "dress."
Note from asker:
Thanks a lot, Christina! I tend to agree about 'gown' (and I have indeed alternated between the 2 terms in my translation) However, in this instance, i feel it was important to make the distinction between the different types of bustle, so I preferred that other, more detailed answer. Many thanks! |
Discussion
Voting for bustle dress too: http://www.museumoflondonprints.com/image/141615/unknown-bus...
4th row: robe à pouf
http://www.photo-carte.com/catalogue.php?page=298&lettre=&PH...
(same website which Charles Davis just posted)
To me (anything but a fashion expert), this looks rather like a bustle version - but not all bustles were alike:
http://www.fashion-era.com/mid-late_victorian_fashion.htm
"In the 1860s he introduced the tunic dress, a knee-length gown worn with a long skirt. In 1864, he abolished the crinoline and pulled skirts up and back into a train. In its place he proposed the demi-crinoline and then the tournure (or pouf), definitively accepted in 1867-1868; which relegated draperies and padding to the rear of the outfit, thus resulting in a flattening of the front of the skirt."
http://www.designerindex.net/designers/charlesfrederickworth...
Worth (the father of haute couture was born in Lincolnshire: hooray!) is generally credited with introducing the bustle. I think this is it:
"Charles Frederick Worth - French couturier (born in England) regarded as the founder of Parisian haute couture; noted for introducing the bustle"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Charles Frederick Worth
There are some nice photos a few rows down here. Click on the thumbnails:
http://www.photo-carte.com/catalogue.php?page=298&lettre=&PH...
https://apollozhao.wordpress.com/2012/02/03/zz东拼西凑好不容易找到的中英法...