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en balancier
portillon extérieur
This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
May 27, 2011 06:41
13 yrs ago
French term

prépondérance à l'ouverture

French to English Tech/Engineering Ships, Sailing, Maritime
It's to qualify a hatch. For example sometimes they are set to just open and close on manual action, but in this case the spring is adjusted so that if you unlock it it automatically springs open (like a car trunk), it can also be set to automatically spring closed unless you apply a pushing force in the other direction. It can be prépondérance à l'ouverture, à la fermeture ou à l'indifférence.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 spring-propelled/assisted automatic opening
3 self-opening
3 power-assisted opening
3 preferential opening
2 biased open
4 -2 normally open

Discussion

Michael GREEN Jun 22, 2011:
@ Asker Are you planning to let contributors know which answer you selected, jessjess, or are you still working on your translation?
Michael GREEN May 31, 2011:
Ages ago, seemingly... philgodard asked for more context: we now have the technical background, but we DON'T have the rest of the phrase.
Until we have, I don't see how a choice can be made between (a) a close translation of the phrase (my preference, to be frank) or a technical explanation (as moved by CC in the Big Apple).
Please would you post the source text around your phrase, jessjess, rather than your explanation of it in EN? What do you have apart from "prépondérance à l'ouverture / fermeture" ?
cc in nyc May 31, 2011:
@ Didier If I were translating this text, I would describe it properly (and yes, IMO too, the translation would be better than the original text). But I'd make the change as an edit (after CAT translation), so it would probably not appear in the TM. And if added it to my glossary, it would certainly be accompanied by an explanatory note.
Didier Fourcot May 31, 2011:
Full description does not match original name? My understanging of the description given is rather "gas-assisted opening, forced hydraulic closing" (and by the way closed by default for safety reasons).
But that is not what I understand when reading "prépondérance à l'ouverture" without the explanation.
So what should the translation do?
1) Render as faithfully as possible the not-so-significant source?
2) Describe properly the system in the translation and thus make it better than the original with a TM or glossary that will have an odd entry?
Michael GREEN May 30, 2011:
@ jessjess Welcome back... I have a few points for your attention:

1. If your client rejected the previous answer (for which you awarded 4 points), it would have been a good idea to flag this up, and add a comment to your glossary entry, which your client's refusal made a non-runner.

2. Be that as it may, you (and we your colleagues) are still looking to translate the term "prépondérance à l'ouverture", and IMHO the nature of the system used to achieve this marvel of technology is neither here nor there. As you explain it, the hatch (which incidentally must be closed when the sub is under water, or the consequences will be dire) is unlocked, then automatically stays open (or closed, depending on the configuration previously selected).

3. You haven't commented on the answers suggested so far (unless you have posted comments while I have been typing this). Might we have your reactions, please?
cc in nyc May 30, 2011:
gas spring assisted opening? Maybe that's the term that needed here? See:
http://www.rondal.com/index2.php?page_id=37&parent_id=10&lan...
http://www.surespancovers.com/roof-srh.htm
jessjess (asker) May 30, 2011:
I am back!! Hello everyone.
First I would like to thank you all for your help.
I am restricted in giving context since all these translations are in relation with submarine construction and I am under confidentiality conditions.
I was gone for the weekend, I did not expect to be part of the discussion on sunday, I apologize to those who were waiting for my participation for further discussion.
I got more information on this system (although not that much), quoted from the specialist.
The hatch is the actual "écoutille" to enter or exit the sub, there is no switch or automaitc trigger, the hatch is still opened by manual action and then the system kicks in.
"The balancing mechanism may feature a balancing ram in a circuit with a nitrogen pressure accumulator. This assembly acts as a spring allowing the hatch to operate in "prépondérance à l'ouverture"."
In this case, the hatch is no longer manually closed, it is shut using a hydraulic press which counters the balancing ram effort
The reason I asked the question again, I admit it's confusing, is that this is another project and the client didn't accept the term "open by default" so I was fishing for another explicit term.
Michael GREEN May 29, 2011:
While I'm here... ... might as well go a little further: mechanical solutions that don't call on external power supplies are numerous, and could well be used on a boat, whatever its size.
E. g. http://www.setin.fr/dhtml/produit-quincaillerie-mistral-81-1... or
http://www.fenetrealu.com/uploads/documents/recommandation-t... (p2).
I rest my case. And I will resist any temptation to make any more contributions until Asker condescends to answer our questions.
Michael GREEN May 29, 2011:
I still have better things to do, but .... I am interrupting my Sunday rest to repeat: until we have a reaction from Asker (who appears to have gone to ground), any discussion is pointless.
However, in support of the points Tony is making so patiently, the question is about HATCHES on some kind of BOAT, not DOORS fitted to APARTMENTS in New York. Energy supplies on most vessels are at a premium, and unless the boat in question is a big 'un (where are you, jessjess?), a hatch is most unlikely to be "power-operated".
Hatches are - usually - horizontal, while doors are - usually - vertical.
And applying the principle of Occam's Razor (or lex parsimoniae for the erudite among us), the simplest explanation is that these hatches are simply mechanical, with a spring to ensure that once they have been unlocked, they spring open and stay open until closed.
Tony M May 29, 2011:
In picturesque language, yes... ..but not in technical texts, where accuracy is paramount.

I quote from your own ref.:

"The act of pushing or pulling the door triggers the open and close cycle. These are also known as power-assisted doors."

Yes, of course, and no-one is suggesting otherwise; but as I have said before, you and your ref. are simply overlooking the fact that this 'open and close cycle' may well (in fact, almost certainly must!) involve some external power input — if a heavy door requires X amount of energy to open it, and the human being only povides Y, then the shortfall X – Y obviously has to be made up from somewhere. Note that the text quoted speficially says 'triggers' — again implying that some external agent is involved.

However, we specifically know this is not the case in the context given here.
cc in nyc May 28, 2011:
power-assisted doors Perhaps it's a misnomer, perhaps a different term should have chosen – but Greenland is icy, Iceland is green, head cheese is not cheese, and eggcreams contain neither eggs nor cream.

The term is accepted by some and used by many for referring to easy-open/close doors. Here's another reference, an excerpt from the "Doors" Wiki:

There are several methods by which an automatically opening door is activated:
1. A sensor detects traffic is approaching. [...]
2. A switch is operated manually, perhaps after security checks. [...]
3. The act of pushing or pulling the door triggers the open and close cycle. These are also known as power-assisted doors. [boldface added]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door#Others

In the case of #3, manual action causes the door to open (or close), but with very little effort, even for extremely heavy doors.
Tony M May 28, 2011:
re: power I don't doubt for an instant that 'power-assisted...' do exist; all I'm saying is that thist usually (and strictly, technically) implies the use of some external motive force — which is patently not the case here (context or no context, we have enough to know that, at least!)

'spring power', although it is used, of course, is a bit misleading, really.

The stored power (energy, really) in a spring is of course generated when you compress it (i.e. in this case, close the hatch).

However, I insist, the idea of 'power-assisted...' normally involves some form of external power — cf. for example 'power-assisted steering'
cc in nyc May 28, 2011:
@ Tony and re: power First of all, some of us feel that the given context is a bit slim... so (we feel) we're speculating about this... But some apartment buildings in NYC have heavy doors that swing open almost at a finger's touch, and these doors are known as "power-assisted doors" – not only on the 'net, but also here on the ground by residents, doormen and passersby. Finally, it's a holiday weekend here in NYC; time to ease off a bit. Have a nice day! :-))
Tony M May 28, 2011:
@ CC The reason why 'power' isn't appropriate is that it strongly implies external power (electricity, hydraulics, etc.) — no-one is saying that a door mightn't be spring-assisted, but 'power' rather tends towards over-translation.

The only time 'power' is really used in that sort of way is in marketing hype!
cc in nyc May 28, 2011:
@ Michael In fact springs may be involved on power-assisted doors... Found this: "Closing shall be by spring force generated by a metal compression spring. The spring shall reduce manual opening force to not more than 67 N (15 lbf). The minimum diameter of spring wire shall be .007mm (172 in.)."
http://www.cfm.va.gov/TIL/spec/08711311.doc
My suggestion might be wrong, but it's my best guess, given the available information... Have a nice day! :-)
Michael GREEN May 28, 2011:
@ cc in nyc Asker (are you still there, jessjess...?) doesn't mention power assistance, only a "spring". Nor does she say whether we are talking about a trailer sailer, an ore carrier, or that submarine again.
Until she responds to this discussion and clarifies all the points that have been raised, there is no point in continuing it.
I have better things to do.
cc in nyc May 28, 2011:
@ Michael RE: "some action must have been required to open them in the first place": I agree, and that is in fact the case for power-assisted doors, which facilitate the opening of heavy doors and ensure that they close smoothly and without slamming.
Of course, I can't answer for the rest...
Michael GREEN May 28, 2011:
@ cc in nyc Possibly - though the previous question concerned a submarine, and it is difficult to imagine a submarine surviving very long if its hatches are "open unless closed". As in the present case, some action must have been required to open them in the first place.
In any event, I was hoping for a response from Asker, who has been conspicuous by her absence since posting the question over 24 hours ago as I write.
On the rare occasions when I post a Kudoz question, I consider it a matter of courtesy to follow the discussion and intervene when appropriate.
cc in nyc May 27, 2011:
@ Michael I can't speak for jessjess, but "open by default" sounds , to me at least, like "open unless you close it." But here "the spring is adjusted so that if you unlock it, it automatically springs open (like a car trunk)" – some action is required to get the door to open. Perhaps the door "springs open" due to a power-assist mechanism?

@ philgodard
It would be nice to have more context. BUt then (sigh) I sometimes feel that way even when I have the whole document in my hands..
Michael GREEN May 27, 2011:
I don't wish to nitpick, but: You already asked this question:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/mechanics_mech_e...
The context is only slightly different, and the term is the same...
What is it you don't like about "open by default" (the answer you accepted last time)?
philgoddard May 27, 2011:
You haven't given any French context, which makes it difficult for us to provide an appropriate answer.
Michael GREEN May 27, 2011:
Just a thought... What is the French word you are translating as "hatch"? This device strikes me as being more appropriate for a portlight. However ...
You mention that it can be set to open or close automatically: perhaps the simplest solution would be "automatic opening / closing" ?

Proposed translations

3 mins

biased open

...could be one way of expressing it; used in certain other fields, though I'm not sure I've ever come across it in a context exactly like this.
Something went wrong...
7 mins

self-opening

doesn't get many Ghits but pretty clear as to intent
Peer comment(s):
agree Michael GREEN : Sounds good to me, Graham. I'm working on integrating the idea into my cocktail cabinet...
21 mins
thanks Mike ;-)
disagree cc in nyc : IMO, too general; might include doors with sensors (e.g., infrared), keypads, wall-mounted pushpads, etc.. (Besides, "self-opening" sounds unfamiliar, at least to me.)
4 days
Something went wrong...
-2
2 hrs

normally open

Specifically used for hatches and switches, not so much for doors and covers, but a number of occurrences exist:
"Access doors and access hatch covers normally closed at sea"
http://www.veristar.com/bvrules/B_2_s1_6_2.htm
"normally closed hatch"
http://www.network54.com/Forum/637977/thread/1288459551/Rear...
"Both hatches are normally open":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny_(ISS_module)
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : This is a hatch that is normally closed, but springs open when commanded.
11 hrs
disagree cc in nyc : I'm with Tony on this one
4 days
Something went wrong...
+1
21 hrs

spring-propelled/assisted automatic opening

going on what has already been offered by all this might work

surespan, access, ladder, automatic, opening, vent, hatch, cover, roof, floor. ... a special gas spring assisted balanced action, making the opening and ...
www.surespancovers.com/ - Cached - Similar

17 Nov 2010 ... The original Automatic Hatch Opening became less reliable over time as the springs compressed, this updated guide uses new struts from Skoda ...
www.my-gti.com/.../volkswagen-golf-automatic-hatch-opening-... - Cached

OR

more simply what you have suggested yourself

"the door/hatch springs open or closed... when set to automatic"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day19 hrs (2011-05-29 02:37:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or even just " may be set to manual or automated opening/closing"
Peer comment(s):
agree cc in nyc : Maybe "spring-assisted open/close" – close enough // ;-)
3 days 12 hrs
Thanks CC! Been keeping an eye on discussion but trying to stay away from long ones these days, and this one is certainly long, and technical! At least we know what type of entry hatch this is now.
Something went wrong...
7 hrs

power-assisted opening

I've heard this from doormen in NYC when referring to the front doors of apartment buildings. (Some of them are quite heavy.) Perhaps it will work here.

I've listed some references (below) from the marine world.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2011-05-27 21:46:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

BTW, I didn't invent this term... It's mentioned on the American Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines (ADAAG) standards – http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/referenced-standards.htm

Also, I just searched "power-assisted doors" on Google Images; got a bunch of photos of cars... Not a boat, but at least it moves! ;-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days4 hrs (2011-05-29 11:25:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Original "References" (links posted below) contain the following:
1/ Power assisted hatch for access to engine room (Atlantis 315)
2/ locking power-assisted hatch for access to engine room (Atlantique 48)
-------------------------

Here's perhaps an even better term:

servo-assisted open/close

Some examples/references:

servo-assisted inspection hatches for engines, stern compartment (Mediterranee 50)
http://www.abruzeseyachtsales.com/mediterranee50_layout.html

Engine Room – Access via servo-assisted hatch (Atlantis 54)
http://www.yachtsforsale.com/yacths_listing/699.html

Servo-assisted inspection hatches: for engines, stern compartment (Mediterranee 47)
http://cranchicalifornia.channelbladelive.com/brochure.asp?&...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days20 hrs (2011-05-31 02:43:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Once more with feeling... As I mentioned in the Discussion, maybe the term that's needed here is:

=====================
gas spring assisted opening
=====================

See:
http://www.rondal.com/index2.php?page_id=37&parent_id=10&lan...
http://www.surespancovers.com/roof-srh.htm
Reference:

http://www.yachtplus.es/sacagrande.php?id=169&idioma=EN

http://www.abruzeseyachtsales.com/atlantique48_layout.html

Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Not really 'power', perhaps 'spring-assisted' might work?
6 hrs
Maybe, but I don't think I've heard this in NYC. // Follow-up: Even though I don't hear "gas spring assisted opening" in NYC, that's where I seem to have wound up. ;-) // Thank you! :D
Something went wrong...
5 days

preferential opening

This is a term used in organic chemistry for the opening of a cycle, but it could be a match for the French expression used, that will need just as much explanation as the original to be fully understood.

The advantage is that you may easily create the matching preferential closing
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Not really sure this works in EN in a mechanical situation; it sounds rather as if the hatch has favourite people for whom it will open, thereby giving them 'preferential treatment' ;-)
4 mins
Something went wrong...
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