Dec 29, 2011 11:43
12 yrs ago
17 viewers *
French term

enveloppe

French to English Other Other
From an insurance report, speaking of a fire

"Sa montée en puissance, "modélisée" de manière très enveloppe plus haut, a conduit à l'inflammation généralisée des matériaux combustibles du local."

I suspect a bit of bad drafting, but a) I may be wrong and b) even if right, I can't see what they might have meant: "enveloppé", for example, doesn't seem to fit particular.

As to what is "modelled above"... this is a description of about 10 lines of how the fire might have happened. Unfortunately this is a printed document so I can't really type out all 10 lines of the French. But it says things like "the fire broke out in the right at the back, and then spread to the photocopier", etc. Can "enveloppe" function as an adjective, and mean "in outline", for example? If so this is a new one on me.

Discussion

MatthewLaSon Jan 7, 2012:
@ David That was my initial guess: thorough (comprehensive)

Happy New Year!
David Sirett Jan 5, 2012:
envelope... An end customer for some work I do on nuclear reactors uses "enveloppe" in a similar manner to mean something like "covering the full ranges of all parameters" or "comprehensive", as we use the more normal noun form in "flight envelope" with regard to aircraft, for example.
Mpoma (asker) Jan 3, 2012:
@Nikki appreciate your point... in fact this is for an agency for which I've worked for many years, and I drew their attention to this and said this was my interpretation, but I recommended they clarify with the client if possible. It's very unlikely I'll get any feedback. Thanks for your efforts on this question though... I feel sure that there are francophone experts out there somewhere who could paraphrase "de manière enveloppe" in a shot. Finding them though.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jan 3, 2012:
Possible also As in "in a summary manner". Again, who know? Nobody knows... tiddly pom!
MatthewLaSon Jan 3, 2012:
Question is now closed, but the more I think of it, the more I think the meaning may have been "in a very cohesive manner". All said in my very humble opinion.

Happy New Year!
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jan 3, 2012:
@ Mpoma This is your translation, not mine, but I'd have consulted the client before making my decision. This is a specialist affair and given the number of interpretations possible. A number of us, without being fire modeling experts I believe, came up with different possibilities for the meaning of the term "enveloppe" ranging from it being linked to a type of fire "scénario enveloppe" to a type of modeling technique to an insurance non-fire specific reading.

The guy who wrote this no doubt knows what interpretation he intended. I'd love to know what reading he meant.
Mpoma (asker) Jan 2, 2012:
well I also just tried googling as follows
>> modélisation "de manière enveloppe" <<
and this does seem to confirm that this a particular approach to modelling. Not sure what though. Have now delivered the document, having gone with Tony M's suggestion more or less... so Tony, if you want the points, would you like to enter a reply? NB thanks to everyone for their efforts with this. I liked Tony's idea not least because "conservative" or "prudent" modelling inevitably fits with a context of analysis by insurance people.
Conor McAuley Dec 30, 2011:
@Nikki Yes, the word may have been used in a -- possibly unusual sense -- of summarised.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Dec 30, 2011:
10 lines of context Mponma,

I think it would be agood idea to make the effort to type out some more context. If you find 10 lines too much to type out (?!), then perhaps the setence before/after the one in which your phrase appears. There is nothing like original context! I am going increasingly along the lines of thinking this is describing a way the fire developped (no pun intended, nor any relation intended on the discussion with typos etc here;-)) to be come a "generalised fire", a "scénario-enveloppe". I'd like to see if that fits your context and cannot guess how it reads.
Conor McAuley Dec 29, 2011:
"Enveloppe" could be the careless use of a spellchecker, with the original word being something similar...but I can't think what.

Oh yes I can, if you try to type "developpée", leave out the "d" and stick in an "n" and forget the extra "e" (thanks Nikki), it could spellcheck to enveloppe...
Just maybe. Makes sense though.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Dec 29, 2011:
'Enveloppé' can of course be used in the past participle form as an adjective. The idea that something may be modelised in an "envelopped" way seems a bit off the rails to me. "Enveloppé" (which would have an -ée ending to go with 'manière' seems right out of place here though.

GUess it means typing out the 10 lines to provide more context, or referring back to the client.

Enveloppe is a tool in the software SketchUp. Is there the slightest possiblity that it has something to do with the software used in a plan of the building?

http://support.google.com/sketchup/bin/answer.py?hl=fr&answe...

"Outil Enveloppe externe
Le nouvel outil Enveloppe externe vous permet de créer une enveloppe formée par les faces externes d'un ensemble de groupes ou de composants imbriqués. Cette fonction est particulièrement utile pour supprimer la géométrie interne des bâtiments 3D."
Marion Feildel (X) Dec 29, 2011:
détaillée Aucun rapport avec enveloppe mais c'est le seul mot qui aurait un sens !
Modélisée plus haut de manière très détaillée.
polyglot45 Dec 29, 2011:
développée rather than "enveloppe" ?
Tony M Dec 29, 2011:
« enveloppe plus haut » I suspect this is the expression you should be looking for, and it is referring to the over-cautious / conservative / etc. way this fire has been modelled: "at the top end of the range" (pessimistic?)
Conor McAuley Dec 29, 2011:
Advice I think you need to check with the client.

Very few hits on Google for those two words as a unit, which would include "très enveloppé".

Maybe it's a spellcheck-gone-wrong thing, or just bad drafting as you suggest.

In any case, it's very hard to figure out what is meant by the author.

Proposed translations

4 days
French term (edited): modelisé d'une manière « enveloppe plus haut »
Selected

conservative / prudent / cautious modelling

Difficult to justify the interpretation, but this is the way I intuitively understood it.

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Note added at 4 days (2012-01-02 22:10:58 GMT)
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Re-reading your source text, is the 'modelisé ... plus haut' in fact referring to the fact that the modelling has been described earlier in your given text? I hadn't assumed that at first, but now Nikki's answer has made me wonder; certainly, if the 'plus haut' doesn't actually belong with it, then the meaning of "de manière très enveloppe" would be quite different.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "yes, also why wouldn't it be "plus haute"... ? although an adverbial use is, stretching it painfully, ** just ** about credible. But the main point is the "conservative"... I think! Thanks"
-1
12 mins

enclosed/covered/enveloped

enveloppé of course with the accent.

The fire enveloped the upper area...it filled it, it covered the area...and THEN it spread to the flammable materials...
Peer comment(s):

disagree Tony M : Doesn't seem very likely, given this actually describes the 'manière' in which it was modelled
4 days
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1 hr

all-encompassing

Further to Marion's comment I would suggest the above.

or

highly detailed

or

thoroughly detailed

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6 hrs

as shown very thoroughly (in the model) above

Hello,

It should read "modelisée de manière très enveloppée" (an extra "e")

très enveloppée = very thoroughly


I hope this helps.



Peer comment(s):

neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : We all agree that the "e" is missing. We do not yet know if the word is right in the first place... yet! However, I am intrigued by your suggestion of 'thorough'. Nothing I have found indicates this meaning for 'envelopper'.
2 hrs
Nikki, "thorough" is meant in the sense of "all-encompassing" (nothing is left out). Not sure what you mean there.
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8 hrs

very detailed manner

Typo for "développée" => very detailed

I was trying to fit in "expounded upon" but it doesn't work.)
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12 hrs
French term (edited): incendie enveloppe, scénario enveloppe

generalised fire

http://www.lne.fr/publications/guides-documents-techniques/r...

At 4.2 there is a discussion of various types of models and techniques used to work out how fires might behave (start, propagate etc). Here there is mention of a “scenario-enveloppe”.

At 4.1, there is a ‘mixture-fraction’ model, where : “une flame est considérée comme une surface, une enveloppe où s’effectuent les échanges ».

At page 100/111, equation 46, « flamme bidimensionnelle (flamme en enveloppe) »

At 101/111, equation 49, « unité de surface de l’enveloppe de la flamme »


http://www.ineris.fr/centredoc/22.pdf

INERIS report (2000).

Développement d'une méthodologie d'évaluation des effets thermiques et toxiques des incendies d'entrepôt .
DRA-03 : Spécificités des entrepôts au regard de l'incendie.

« SCENARIO ENVELOPPE »
« Dans les scénarios d'incendie généralisé (scénarios enveloppes), la surface au sol couverte par les flammes est généralement assimilée, dans les modélisations des études de danger, à la surface totale de la cellule affectée par un incendie. »

« EFFETS ENVELOPPES »
« Toutefois, dans la mesure où, dans le cadre d’études de dangers ou d’analyses critiques, le but est de déterminer des distances d’effets enveloppe en supposant que les mesures de protection actives sont inefficaces, une modélisation relativement simple du phénomène peut être mise en œuvre. Cette modélisation ne prend donc en compte que les paramètres suivants :

« SCENARIO ENVELOPPE »
« Du fait de la très grande diversité de produits pouvant être stockés dans une cellule (plus de deux cents produits différents peuvent se trouver dans une plate-forme logistique), il est extrêmement complexe de caractériser le scénario d’incendie en vue d’une étude sur les effets thermiques et toxiques et donc de définir le scénario enveloppe. »


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Note added at 12 hrs (2011-12-30 00:22:50 GMT)
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In so far as it might be possible to consider the outer skin of a building as a whole, then an "enveloppe" scenario may be one where the whole building is on fire.

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Note added at 12 hrs (2011-12-30 00:28:25 GMT)
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In terms of constructioon and building design :

http://www.wbdg.org/design/env_atria.php

"Exterior Envelope
Resistance to the elements is the primary focus of the atrium enclosure. Several components can make up the skin of the atrium. They are the walls, roof and any sloping surfaces that act to keep water and wind out of the interior space and control the amount and quality of daylight penetrating the space. (Refer to Wall Systems)"

"The designer must successfully blend and combine elements of the fundamentals of geometry, lighting, envelope construction,
landscaping, acoustics, thermal control, pressurization and air balance, fire protected, life safety smoke control, and maintenance into a cohesive whole."




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Note added at 12 hrs (2011-12-30 00:29:11 GMT)
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Very tentative suggestions 'inspired' by the reference post by Petitavoine.

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Note added at 13 hrs (2011-12-30 00:57:31 GMT)
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http://www.postgraduate.hw.ac.uk/course/12/

For "generalised fire".


http://www.dba-studio.net/PDF/Fire.pdf

"Our primary strategy is based on limiting natural
and built fuel sources. This reduction of combustible
material in the structures and their surrounds creates a firebreak allowing the flames to move safely
around the immediate area.
But given the ballistic nature of wind driven embers – generated beyond the firebreak zone - it is
also necessary to protect the building envelope. A
comprehensive system of shutters or doors can protect glass areas and complete a defensive, noncombustible hard shell when there is a threat of fire."

"DBA emphasizes the importance of an impregnable
exterior envelope, or hard-shell, in their fire-safe
strategies. While non-combustible cladding is a given, doors and windows require protection."


http://www.nibs.org/client/assets/files/hpbc/HPBDE_Workshop-...

See section on Fire benchmarks.







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Note added at 13 hrs (2011-12-30 01:04:22 GMT)
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Sa montée en puissance, "modélisée" de manière très enveloppe plus haut, a conduit à l'inflammation généralisée des matériaux combustibles du local

"Its increase in strength, modelised above as a very generlised fire, lead to the widespread ignition of the room's (*) inflammable materials".

Not keen on my suggestion for "local" which could often be translated as "premises", but for that it would be plural. Your global context will give you a better indication of the context for the right term for the 'local', I imagine.

My conclusion is that there is no mistake in the original. "Enveloppe" is being used as a technical term, probably to describe the nature of the fire, which, according to my findings, is probably a generalised fire, extending to the whole building, set of premises.

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Note added at 13 hrs (2011-12-30 01:39:08 GMT)
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Last word, "enveloppe" might be being used, as a noun, "très enveloppe", in the way a noun is sometimes used f

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Note added at 13 hrs (2011-12-30 01:39:51 GMT)
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familiarly to mean "in the style of" , "if it were", "as"...
Peer comment(s):

neutral jasonwkingsley : You really have an appetite for getting to the bottom of things. Chapeau :)
1 hr
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3 days 22 hrs

envelope

Mon mari ingénieur vient de m'expliquer qu'on parle bien d'enveloppes des courbes de données dans la simulation numérique d'événements ou de possibilités.
En allemand einhüllende Kurve
En anglais envelope

Evidemment, le très devant enveloppe est très irritant.

www.ui.sav.sk/math/_ALL.ppt - ...Forest Fire Simulation - Principles, Models and Application. L. Halada, J. Glasa, ... Principles of the Propagation in Envelope Model – Step I. Local fire: x(,t) = a. ...
-
On elliptical model for forest fire spread modeling and simulation ...www.sciencedirect.com/.../S0378475407002030 - von J Glasa - 2008 - ...Keywords: Fire behaviour modeling; Local elliptical fire spread; Huygens' principle; Envelope theory; Forest fire simulation. MSC: 93A30; 81T80; 68U35 ...
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Forest Fires (3D Spatial)ups.savba.sk/3dspatial/...Therefore, the physics-based computer simulation approach to modeling fire spread ... The front line of the fire is represented by the envelope of all ellipses ...


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Note added at 3 days22 hrs (2012-01-02 09:50:29 GMT)
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Du Canada :
RESEARCH INTERESTS - Xianli Wang - Personal Websitewww.ualberta.ca/~xianli/research-interests...Landscape simulator: Bioclimate envelope models predict species habitat based ... (e.g. forest fire, harvesting, species dispersal, biotic interactions, succession, ...


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Note added at 3 days22 hrs (2012-01-02 09:55:23 GMT)
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Cela veut dire qu'on relève les points externes des représentations qui font ensuite fonction d'enveloppe.
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Reference comments

3 hrs
Reference:

A vérifier, car je ne suis pas matheuse

Je vois que le terme "enveloppe" est utilisé pour modéliser en CFD des données:
"4.3.2.9 LE TRAITEMENT DES RESULTATS
Un nombre très important de valeurs est obtenu par un calcul CFD puisqu’en général le maillage d’une seule pièce de taille standard contient plusieurs dizaines de milliers d’éléments et pour chacun de ces éléments sont obtenues dans le cas
d’un incendie au moins les valeurs de température, les trois composantes de vitesse et la concentration des fumées. D’autres variables peuvent aussi être calculées en fonction des besoins et des modèle choisis : concentrations en CO, NO ou autres produits toxiques, énergie cinétique turbulente et sa dissipation,
etc…
Un post-processeur permet de traiter ces données. Il permet au moins de visualiser les contours des variables et les vecteurs vitesses dans des plans. Il peut aussi éventuellement, selon le post-processeur, permettre d’identifier les enveloppes correspondant à une valeur donnée d’une variable, calculer le volume d’un nuage toxique, évaluer la valeur moyenne de concentration en fumées et de température dans un espace donné ; calculer la visibilité d’un occupant évoluant
dans l’espace, extraire les valeurs de température des parois pour transmettre à un code d’analyse de résistance des structures.
Chaque outil CFD a en principe son propre post-processeur, qui est plus ou moins sophistiqué. Il existe aussi des post-processeurs ‘indépendants’ qui peuvent traiter
les fichiers de résultats de nombreux codes CFD. Signalons parmi ceux-ci Tecplot et Fieldview."

..."À la suite de nombreuses études expérimentales, la formation d’un bain au fond de la cuve, la thermohydraulique du bain et les interactions entre matériaux ont pu être comprises et plus ou moins bien modélisées. À l’heure actuelle, une sérieuse remise en question de l’approche « enveloppe » classique a conduit à utiliser de nouveaux modèles capables de calculer l’évolution transitoire d’un bain pour aborder le problème."

Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD)

... 3.1.3 Transition vers l'embrasement généralisé : le Flash-Over. ...... L'incendie s'est alors développé de façon exponentielle et un jet de flammes ...... enveloppes correspondant à une valeur donnée d'une variable, ..... scénario et la méthode HFAZM, la pièce où a lieu l'incendie est modélisée par ...
www.ineris.fr/.../incendie_milieu_confine_web...


PDF]
CONTRIBUTIONS A LA MODELISATION DES INCENDIES ET DE LEURS EFFETS ...orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/.../1997%20Thesis%20Franssen%20V2010.p...Dateiformat: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
von JM Franssen - 1997 - représentait une courbe enveloppe de mesures relevées lors d'incendies réels. ...... modélisée de manière très simpliste, avec sa vitesse de refroidissement ...
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : I'm rooting around at the moment based on what you have come up with here. If enveloppe is realted to incendire rather than the modélisation, then there are indications that it can be used to describe the form of a flame.
8 hrs
I'm glad you've picked it up to try and get to the bottom of it. Thanks.
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