Mar 10, 2006 14:15
18 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
Maîtrise
French to English
Art/Literary
Music
classical vocal music
"12 chanteurs et une Maîtrise"
These are simply the required (modern day) performers for a piece of 17th century sacred music.
I hesitate between "school choir" and "children's choir". Other suggestions are of course welcome.
These are simply the required (modern day) performers for a piece of 17th century sacred music.
I hesitate between "school choir" and "children's choir". Other suggestions are of course welcome.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+6
48 mins
Selected
12 (male) adult voices and (mixed) treble top line
It would really help if you could tell us the composer and piece (if you know it!).
I read this as being 12 singers taking the Alto, Tenor and Bass parts, probably male originally but potentially with contralto women today, and with the soprano line taken by trebles - originally boys but probably a mix these days.
A "maîtrise" is often mixed these days but usually consists of unbroken voices or trebles. They are often paired up with lower voices to flesh out the parts.
Hope that helps!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 53 mins (2006-03-10 15:09:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Something like "treble chorus" could work.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-10 15:16:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Is this a piece for double choir? A lot of Bach etc. (OK so that may be a bit late for your piece) has scoring for double choir, which might include a chorus of trebles (children's voices).
I'm leaning towards "chorus of trebles"/"treble chorus" here.
I've just sung in the Berlioz Te Deum - much later, of course! - which has a "coro di fanciulli", or chorus of trebles.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-10 15:24:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
It just strikes me as strange that a "school choir" or "children's choir" would be listed as performers in a 17th century piece. I've never come across anything like that and I've done a fair bit of this stuff.
From the net:
"Exultet mundus gaudio: introduction and sequence of nine carols for the Christian year ... for SSAATTBB chorus, SATB soli and two-part chorus of trebles (boys or girls or both)"
Good luck!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-10 15:35:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry - last comment, I promise!
Take for example the Vienna Boys' Choir, which is a type of "maîtrise". If they want to do a Mozart mass or something similar they join forces with singers who provide the Alto, Tenor and Bass parts (although in reality it's all a bit blurred because it's tradition over there for boys to sing alto too) and they provide the treble line, or top line.
Of course, it's impossible to say without knowing what piece this is!
The beauty of "treble chorus" is that a) you're not limiting yourself to kids, as I'm not a kid and I regularly sing from parts that say "treble" b) size-wise a treble chorus is much more flexible.
Enjoy!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-10 16:04:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:6krNg0QLWooJ:www.calperf...
In 1525, John Taverner was invited to move from his native Lincolnshire to become instructor of the choristers at the newly founded Cardinal College (now Christ Church) in Oxford, where provision was made for the establishment of a large choir (16 boys, 12 lay clerks and 12 chaplains).
"12 lay clerks" - men taking the alto, tenor and bass lines - smacks of your "12 chanteurs". The 16 boys would be your "maîtrise".
However, the problem lies in the fact that you ask for the required "modern-day" performers for this piece. I'm sticking with "treble chorus". It seems dangerous to assume that we're talking about children, but we can't really say either way, and I think we are. "Treble chorus" would apply for way back then and right now, and would encapsulate "school" and "children's" choirs, and cathedral choirs, should it need to.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2006-03-10 16:52:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Brilliant - thanks for the insightful info.
Still sticking with "treble chorus". This won't exclude cathedral/college choristers and will include excellent school groups (often but not by any means exclusively) from private schools such as Tiffin Boys' Choir; London Oratory School Schola (not private) etc.
I think that's the closest you'll get. There are boys/girls choirs and children's choirs but the emphasis is mostly on secular music over here, and children's choirs vary hugely in standard - some of the best ones would be able to cope. At the other end of the scale you have "choristers", but those groups are mostly confined to cathedrals and churches and are often part of a larger choir.
"Chorus of children"?"Children's chorus"? "Treble" edges it a tad closer to the chorister idea, IMO.
A really tough one!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2006-03-15 09:16:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
A couple of other ideas that came to me this morning:
"treble voices" http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q="treble voices"&meta=
"choir of trebles"
"treble choir"
I read this as being 12 singers taking the Alto, Tenor and Bass parts, probably male originally but potentially with contralto women today, and with the soprano line taken by trebles - originally boys but probably a mix these days.
A "maîtrise" is often mixed these days but usually consists of unbroken voices or trebles. They are often paired up with lower voices to flesh out the parts.
Hope that helps!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 53 mins (2006-03-10 15:09:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Something like "treble chorus" could work.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-10 15:16:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Is this a piece for double choir? A lot of Bach etc. (OK so that may be a bit late for your piece) has scoring for double choir, which might include a chorus of trebles (children's voices).
I'm leaning towards "chorus of trebles"/"treble chorus" here.
I've just sung in the Berlioz Te Deum - much later, of course! - which has a "coro di fanciulli", or chorus of trebles.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-10 15:24:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
It just strikes me as strange that a "school choir" or "children's choir" would be listed as performers in a 17th century piece. I've never come across anything like that and I've done a fair bit of this stuff.
From the net:
"Exultet mundus gaudio: introduction and sequence of nine carols for the Christian year ... for SSAATTBB chorus, SATB soli and two-part chorus of trebles (boys or girls or both)"
Good luck!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-10 15:35:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry - last comment, I promise!
Take for example the Vienna Boys' Choir, which is a type of "maîtrise". If they want to do a Mozart mass or something similar they join forces with singers who provide the Alto, Tenor and Bass parts (although in reality it's all a bit blurred because it's tradition over there for boys to sing alto too) and they provide the treble line, or top line.
Of course, it's impossible to say without knowing what piece this is!
The beauty of "treble chorus" is that a) you're not limiting yourself to kids, as I'm not a kid and I regularly sing from parts that say "treble" b) size-wise a treble chorus is much more flexible.
Enjoy!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-03-10 16:04:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:6krNg0QLWooJ:www.calperf...
In 1525, John Taverner was invited to move from his native Lincolnshire to become instructor of the choristers at the newly founded Cardinal College (now Christ Church) in Oxford, where provision was made for the establishment of a large choir (16 boys, 12 lay clerks and 12 chaplains).
"12 lay clerks" - men taking the alto, tenor and bass lines - smacks of your "12 chanteurs". The 16 boys would be your "maîtrise".
However, the problem lies in the fact that you ask for the required "modern-day" performers for this piece. I'm sticking with "treble chorus". It seems dangerous to assume that we're talking about children, but we can't really say either way, and I think we are. "Treble chorus" would apply for way back then and right now, and would encapsulate "school" and "children's" choirs, and cathedral choirs, should it need to.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2006-03-10 16:52:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Brilliant - thanks for the insightful info.
Still sticking with "treble chorus". This won't exclude cathedral/college choristers and will include excellent school groups (often but not by any means exclusively) from private schools such as Tiffin Boys' Choir; London Oratory School Schola (not private) etc.
I think that's the closest you'll get. There are boys/girls choirs and children's choirs but the emphasis is mostly on secular music over here, and children's choirs vary hugely in standard - some of the best ones would be able to cope. At the other end of the scale you have "choristers", but those groups are mostly confined to cathedrals and churches and are often part of a larger choir.
"Chorus of children"?"Children's chorus"? "Treble" edges it a tad closer to the chorister idea, IMO.
A really tough one!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2006-03-15 09:16:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
A couple of other ideas that came to me this morning:
"treble voices" http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q="treble voices"&meta=
"choir of trebles"
"treble choir"
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Cervin
: -sounds a really interesting piece to translate.
2 hrs
|
|
Thanks, Janet. I agree - really interesting.
|
|
| agree |
IC --
3 hrs
|
|
cheers
|
|
| agree |
writeaway
: ;-)
6 hrs
|
|
cheers, writeaway
|
|
| agree |
Giulia Barontini
10 hrs
|
|
thanks, Giulia
|
|
| agree |
Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.
: Yes. I think this question has been asked some time ago with an answer provided which is in agreement with this answer..
1 day 4 hrs
|
|
cheers
|
|
| agree |
Alexandra Hague
: Very interesting comments
2 days 6 hrs
|
|
thanks, Alexandra
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-4
12 mins
Anthony Baldwin
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Legalese and Computer Geek spoken here!
Native in: English (Variant: US)
Works in: Portuguese to English, Spanish to English, French to English
Mastery / control
It should probably read ¨Matiresse¨ or ¨Maitre¨ (ie. Master or Mistress, indicating the conductor). Nonetheless, Maîtrise means mastery or control, such as, maîtrise de soi = self-control.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 mins (2006-03-10 14:29:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Your entire sentence reads,¨Twelve singers and a Mastery.¨
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 mins (2006-03-10 14:29:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Your entire sentence reads,¨Twelve singers and a Mastery.¨
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Alexandra Hague
: IMHO I don't think this is right in this context.
6 mins
|
| disagree |
Tony M
: Doesn't make any sense in this context; there is a specific meaning to which Asker has already alluded.
13 mins
|
| disagree |
Alison Jenner
: with Alexandra and Dusty on this given the context
15 mins
|
| disagree |
awilliams
: what's a "Mastery"?
28 mins
|
16 mins
cathedral choir-school
"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 mins (2006-03-10 14:34:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The Protestant Reformation put an end to the English schools, while abroad they seem to have died out when paid singers began to be employed in the churches, though perhaps the maîtrise or cathedral choir-school of to-day may be regarded as their legitimate successor.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13547b.htm
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 mins (2006-03-10 14:34:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The Protestant Reformation put an end to the English schools, while abroad they seem to have died out when paid singers began to be employed in the churches, though perhaps the maîtrise or cathedral choir-school of to-day may be regarded as their legitimate successor.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13547b.htm
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
awilliams
: yes, this is - almost - an equivalent but choristers from a choir school would perform, not the whole choir school, which - apart from Westminster Abbey - all take non-singing kids, too
23 mins
|
34 mins
children's choir
The Maîtrise de Radio France, for example, so not necessarily church or cathedral. Radio France also has a choir of adults, the Maîtrise is for ages 9 to 17.
+5
10 mins
choir, choir school
I have heard this in a classical context to mean "choir school", without more context I think you could just call it a choir.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 mins (2006-03-10 14:26:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Pa...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 34 mins (2006-03-10 14:50:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Is it possible they are performing a piece like a concerto grosso, with 12 "soloists" 3 of each Soprano, Alto, Tenor Bass which is backed up by a much larger choir?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 mins (2006-03-10 14:26:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Pa...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 34 mins (2006-03-10 14:50:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Is it possible they are performing a piece like a concerto grosso, with 12 "soloists" 3 of each Soprano, Alto, Tenor Bass which is backed up by a much larger choir?
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Enza Longo
: yes, I've seen it used for both choir school and choir so it all depends on the asker's context
4 mins
|
| agree |
Alison Jenner
17 mins
|
| neutral |
Tony M
: I am not qualified to agree, I just wanted to add that the choir MIGHT (probably would) include adult voices, so I thinkyou're right to steer clear of anything suggesting 'children'
17 mins
|
|
I think you are right, Dusty.
|
|
| agree |
Dr Sue Levy (X)
31 mins
|
| agree |
IC --
3 hrs
|
| agree |
Nadia Stephanov
20 hrs
|
-1
28 mins
12 choristers and a choir master
I am guessing that 'Maitrise' could translate as choir master because of the capital letter
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 34 mins (2006-03-10 14:50:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Maitrise used in the sense of someone with a very sound understanding of music (ie with a Masters degree)-you'd need to be pretty good to lead a choir! 'Choristers' implies adults or children or a mixture.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 34 mins (2006-03-10 14:50:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Maitrise used in the sense of someone with a very sound understanding of music (ie with a Masters degree)-you'd need to be pretty good to lead a choir! 'Choristers' implies adults or children or a mixture.
Discussion
At the time they were written, the Maîtrise part of these works were sung by all-boys choirs. This particular group plays "authentic" music, the boy's voices are not replaced with women or even countertenors. But I believe it is common today for a Maîtrice to also have girl child voices in France.
A Maîtrise is a school choir with child voices. In France these are associated almost always with private schools, but students are not necessarily Christians. They are associated with a church, but not necessarily a cathedral.
The French musical context is very clear. These pieces are performed by adult professionals and with child voices from a Maîtrise associated with the performance site.
The problem is the translation. In other countries, children's choirs may be organized differently. My attempt is to find the closest English term for a children's choir capable of singing pre-classic church music
There are several different composers for different programs, all 17th century or even earlier.