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pour remarquer des phrases « accusé de réception »

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

prendre en compte

English translation:

act on

Added to glossary by Mpoma
Jul 25, 2021 07:49
3 yrs ago
41 viewers *
French term

prendre en compte (specific context)

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) EU law
This is about a bill passed (become law) by the French Parliament, despite the European Commission having heavily criticised it when it was notified to it as required by EU law.

"La commission a émis l'avis circonstancié que le projet notifié serait contraire aux articles 3, 14 et 15 de la Directive sur le commerce électronique s'il devait être adopté sans prendre en compte ses remarques ;"

This phrase "prendre en compte" used by the European Commission in this precise context (where the Commission rejects a bill proposed by a legislature) appears to have caused a lot of problems Outre Manche on several occasions (I can't remember the specific cases, but I do remember groaning/shouting at the radio a couple of years ago), because the UK press invariably translates it as "take into account". I believe, although I could be wrong, that the official EU translations into English also systematically commit the same egregious error.

I am convinced that the French expression, in an EU legal context, is much stronger than this: it means that the legislature in question MUST react and modify its legislation (here, proposed legislation) accordingly, in order to bring it into compliance with EU law in order not to be in breach of treaty obligations. For me, as an English-speaker, there is no way that the expression "take into account" has anything like this force, either in ordinary speech or in legal language.

So what should we say? I suggest that it's somewhere between "act in response to" and "take measures to comply with".
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 act on
4 take due and proper account
3 without addressing its mind to; whilst ignoring
References
"Act on" ...

Discussion

Conor McAuley Jul 25, 2021:
I second that. The expression previously always seemed such a banal one to use in vitally important sentences in contracts!
AllegroTrans Jul 25, 2021:
Great question And I didn't realise anything about this nuance of meaning up to now, although I had often thought the French phrase had a stronger meaning than "take into account".
Conor McAuley Jul 25, 2021:
Ooooh! Look who's done a DNA test!

More seriously, fascinating stuff, I'm noting all of it, thanks for posting and explaining Chris. That's me well telt again!
AllegroTrans Jul 25, 2021:
@ mpoma (2) I have to confess I don't understand these "3 levels" of binding force in my French reference. If I were to guess at "3 levels" in English, I wouldn't think "compatibility" and "conformity" express that notion. My Anglo-saxon-Celtic-early Briton-Viking mind would think more along levels of constraint- e.g. (1) must consider + act if appropriate (2) must act (3) act, or else....
I was tempted at first to suggest "implement" but I thought this might be around level 2. Hope I am making sense. Deep French analysis of meaning is not my forte. 5 years living in continental Europe and working for the EU (EEC then) was clearly inadequate.
AllegroTrans Jul 25, 2021:
Just wanted to say... that I think TonyM hit on the right note (with "take due/full account") before I posted my answer. Tony, I had not read your comment at that stage (it was one among many) and have only just done so. So I was not attempting to pirate!
AllegroTrans Jul 25, 2021:
@ mpoma re planning law I don't really think you need to be concerned about the term being relevant in planning law. Surely it's just one clear example among others. My reading is simply that - when applied in a legal sense - the term means that where there are two standards/norms there is an obligation to comply with the higher of these. That of course is a specific (and maybe typically) French analysis which we haven't got in English; hence the need to "add something".
Conor McAuley Jul 25, 2021:
Steve: thanks.

Chris (AllegroTrans): You're funny! For me, you have resolved the issue, not by providing info that only a French native could, by weighing up the words, feeling them, but by researching (or, more likely, by finding a reference for your existing knowledge) the term and by finding that the concept is a legal concept.
Well done, fair play to you, term stored in my mind.


But now, on the basis that communication occurs when a message is sent by one person and received by another, the French have acted in bad faith: leaving "prendre en compte" aside for a moment, "contraire aux articles [...]" can't be any clearer.

So the French have very clearly understood the message but have refused to implement what it suggests.
Mpoma (asker) Jul 25, 2021:
@AllegroT Thanks, a quick gsearch confirms this idea of hierarchical relations between legal standards.

That bit, "Originellement, elle n'était pas une des formes de l'opposabilité, mais... ", i.e. suggesting indeed that the degree of constraint associated with the expression has changed over time, is interesting. These quotes seem to be centred on a specific context here, French planning law, making me wonder how far this provides a key to the meaning in a specific EU law context.
AllegroTrans Jul 25, 2021:
And again Fait de prendre en considération, d'intégrer quelque chose. Notion juridique utilisée pour rappeler les rapports hiérarchiques entre les normes juridiques notamment en situation de conflit potentiel entre deux d'entre elles.

Prise en compte : Définition simple et facile du dictionnaire
https://www.linternaute.fr/dictionnaire/fr/definition/prise-...
AllegroTrans Jul 25, 2021:
I'm not a native FR-spkr but here goes: Prise en compte

Dans le droit français, la notion de « prise en compte » (quelquefois appelée « prise en considération ») décrit ou précise un niveau de rapport entre deux « normes » (au sens juridique du terme) susceptibles d'entrer en conflit.

Ces deux normes sont dites supérieure et, pour celle qui doit être compatible à la première, inférieure .

C'est le moins contraignant des 3 niveaux de la notion juridique « d’opposabilité » (les autres étant la compatibilité et la conformité). Originellement, elle n'était pas une des formes de l'opposabilité, mais - sans impliquer d'opposabilité directe aux tiers, dans le droit de l'aménagement du territoire, elle tend à s'en rapprocher avec une obligation croissante de compatibilité avec les options fondamentales du document de norme supérieure, sous réserve de dérogations motivées (avec le cas échéant un contrôle approfondi du juge sur la dérogation) ;
Usages

Cette notion de prise en compte est souvent utilisée pour régir les rapports hiérarchiques entre les documents d'urbanisme.

(Wikipedia ref.)
Steve Robbie Jul 25, 2021:
For the purposes of this discussion, input from a French native would be helpful.

As Conor says, it's about nuance. There are often contexts where there is an apparent difference in nuance between prendre en compte (consider + act on) and take into account (often closer to: consider + make small concessions), but I would like to have the connotations of the French expression spelt out to me by someone with a complete grasp.

Asserting that "take account of" / "take into account" is an egregious error is hyperbole.
Carol Gullidge Jul 25, 2021:
@Mpoma To me, and fwiw, Steve's option of "act on" is by far the clearest solution so far. There are times and circumstances when things need to be spelled out more clearly in one language than in another.

Whilst I usually have a horror of "talking down" to target audiences, I can quite see why you'd feel the need to be more explicit in this case.
Conor McAuley Jul 25, 2021:
You seem to have made your mind up from the start on this one, which is fine.

No point asking for a discussion if what you actually want is confirmation that you are right, that said. No offence intended.

If you do want to explore the nuances of the French language, input from someone who speaks that language as his/her native language is somewhat handy.
Mpoma (asker) Jul 25, 2021:
I'm not sure we do need a native Fr speaker: the phrase in my question makes clear that this action of prise en compte is essential if the French Parliament is to avoid being in breach of EU law.

The question is therefore one for English-speakers: are "take into account", "take account of" or "take into consideration" strong enough, or appropriate, for this situation? I think "act on" is simply more precise.

Perhaps Steve could put this as an answer if (as may be the case) he thinks it's a goer.
Conor McAuley Jul 25, 2021:
"French is less straightforward and more oblique" I have translated texts that say "the Client may claim compensation for xyz", implying that the Client WILL be paid compensation for xyz, so I accept your point, to a certain degree.

We need a native speaker of French.
Mpoma (asker) Jul 25, 2021:
"Act on" is nice, and very different (far more imperative), to my way of thinking, to "take into consideration" or "take account of". I'm basically suggesting that the French expression in this context is in fact a euphemism, akin to many phrases and expressions in business French, where what appears to be merely suggestive is in fact completely binding. I'm suggesting that French is less straightforward and more oblique in this way, in this area.

Or perhaps more coy: I'm thinking of some of the circumlocutions you find in business French which all basically amount to saying "give me that money".
Conor McAuley Jul 25, 2021:
Interesting thoughts from Tony and Steve.

1) It's a question of good faith -- the French (and presumably the English in the previous cases) know full well what is intended by "prendre en compte"/"take into account".
2) That said, the wooly and imprecise wording by the Commission doesn't help.


Maybe, from a legal point of view, under the various treaties, the French can enact whatever legislation they like, only for the dodgy bits to be ripped apart in the European courts.

It's just crazy that a lot of French legislation doesn't even get past their OWN Constitutional Court!

"The current guy", as D. Lemon might say...
Wilsonn Perez Reyes Jul 25, 2021:
1.4 Glossary form must be maintained Draft glossaries are generated automatically from KudoZ questions and answers. For this reason, expressions such as "see below", "in this context", etc., must not be entered in the boxes provided for terms, either when posting source terms or proposing translations. Question marks, quote marks, unnecessary capitalization and anything else that would not be found in a dictionary, should not be entered.
https://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_general/1.4#1.4
Steve Robbie Jul 25, 2021:
Act on.. ... is the sort of phrase you are looking for.

That said, "take account of" (which is how I usually word that phrase) already means more than "read but disregard", so it is frankly doubtful to me that it is egregiously wrong, if it is wrong at all.

If you go any further than this in a bid to convey obedience to an instruction, you will arguably be overtranslating.
Carol Gullidge Jul 25, 2021:
@ Mpoma I tend to agree with you re the interpretation of "take into account". I believe that very often - especially in politics these days - it means "something that we'll bear in mind, and will duly make a (mental) note of, and perhaps act on should the occasion ever arise and we need to be perceived as acting responsibly, but let's hope we can simply get away with brushing it under the carpet for long enough for the matter to have either become irrelevant or even with a bit of luck, forgotten altogether.

Sorry, this doesn't help with your definition, but does support your interpretation!
Tony M Jul 25, 2021:
@ Asker (2) IATE lists, among others, the following that might help:
'take (due/full) account of'
'take ... into consideration'

Or maybe, to give it greater force, and with a little re-wording: 'have failed to...' + any of the above.

I suppose you might say 'without taking any notice of', though that's not really the right register here, is it?!
Tony M Jul 25, 2021:
@ Asker I rather think you are worrying for nothing.
Both your suggested alternatives in my view change the intent, since they specify the manner of 'taking into account' — i.e. that they take some kind of action — which is not specified in the source text. Maybe you could satisfy your doubt by turning the whole thing round and simply saying 'have ignored' — which is after all what it means! — that does to my ears have a little more force to it.
Or simply 'ignoring' or 'without paying (any) heed to'?

Proposed translations

+1
3 hrs
Selected

act on

As per discussion - I'll put this forward in case the asker thinks it's viable for his/her context. I think I've used it occasionally in the past, although I usually stick to "take account of".
Peer comment(s):
agree Carol Gullidge
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Yes, I do think this is the right one."
2 hrs
French term (edited): sans prendre en compte

without addressing its mind to; whilst ignoring

Addressing my mind to Wilsonn's glossary-related objection -note the previous ProZ question in the first weblink, I've taken out the bracketed part from the question, but prefaced with 'sans' as it changes the complexion of any answer into English.

In appeal cases, the standard wording may come to 'mind' of 'The Learned Judge did not address his or her mind to certain factors'.
Example sentence:

First and foremost, if partnership is the aim, the Commission needs to address the question of whether this is a strategy “for” Africa or rather “with” Africa.

It was addressing its mind to a Case that was not before it.

Reference:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/business-commerce-general/3149662-prendre-en-compte-here.html

Note from asker:
As an English-squeaker I think I'd tend to go along with what AllegroT says on this.
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : I think this goes beyond a state of mind and implies at the least detailed consideration and action if necessary; please see my French ref. in DBox which says this is the lower of 3 levels or standards of binding force in French law.
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

take due and proper account

A sort of "fudge" on "take account" which intensifies the meaning without straying from the expression. I think this would subsume notions like "act on" and "not ignore" without those words being spelled out in full.

My inclination is that "prendre en compte" has a more robust meaning than "take account of" and I agree with Mpoma that it is a bad translation.

I thught our friend FHS might have something on this but alas he hasn't.

It certainly is a widely-used expression in the legal and admin world. Zillions of examples online.

EN EN AMENDMENTS - European Parliament
http://www.europarl.europa.eu › EMPL-AM-557186_EN
Switzerland in the European Union's internal market ... transpose Directive 2013/​55/EU, which improves it;. Or. fr ... take due and proper account of the legitimate ...

Decision - European Commission - European Union
https://ec.europa.eu › germany › com20160381
PDF
23 Sept 2016 — Federation and the Länder in European Union Affairs (EUZBLG): ... Bundesrat calls on the Federal Government to take due and proper account.

Specific Terms and Conditions of Contract for Goods - Suffolk ...
https://www.suffolk.police.uk › page › downloads
PDF
The Police and Crime Commissioner for Suffolk – General Terms and ... (b) shall take due and proper account of the interests of the Commissioner; and.

Christmas Trees and Related Goods - The Royal Parks
https://www.royalparks.org.uk › assets › pdf_file
PDF
The Royal Parks shall have the right to commission an audit of any returns made in ... ii. shall take due and proper account of the interests of TRP; and.
50 pages



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2021-07-25 12:33:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A good example involving risks - i.e. you don't just "note" or "notice" these:

Appendix A Roley Contractual Risk Matrix - The Edinburgh ...
http://www.edinburghtraminquiry.org › cec01547...
PDF
... to adequately inspect the Site and to take due and proper account of the risks ... [73] Snagging protocol, time limit and long head time to be agreed.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

"Act on" ...

... is the sort of phrase you are looking for.

That said, "take account of" (which is how I usually word that phrase) already means more than "read but disregard", so it is frankly doubtful to me that it is egregiously wrong, if it is wrong at all.

If you go any further than this in a bid to convey obedience to an instruction, you would arguably be overtranslating.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2021-07-25 09:01:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

EDIT: SORRY, this was intended to be a discussion entry. I've reposted it where it ought to be, but the "Hide reference" function doesn't seem to work.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree AllegroTrans
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
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