Jul 28, 2020 10:56
4 yrs ago
33 viewers *
French term
à défaut pour
French to English
Law/Patents
Law: Contract(s)
This has come up in the archives: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-contracts/1... ... but I already knew that as the meaning. I can't understand the usage/meaning in my case.
Online service agreement relating to a Web application. This is about an agreement with a business introducer. It's just said that XXX, which owns the application/platform, will have to process the introducer's personal data. So there's quite a bit of GDPR-related boilerplate ... then...
"
...
L’Apporteur dispose également du droit d’introduire une réclamation auprès de la Commission Nationale de l’Informatique et des Libertés s’il considère que le traitement opéré par XXX constitue une violation de ses données personnelles.
En revanche, l’Apporteur reconnait expressément qu’il ne dispose pas du droit de s’opposer au traitement de ses données et du droit à leur effacement sauf à résilier le Contrat et le compte de l’Apporteur sur la plateforme, à défaut pour XXX de pouvoir exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet."
I apologise if, to you, the meaning of the latter sentence is a lucid as daylight ... and also makes sense. I think I've got something of a blind spot about it.
... "... should XXX be unable to perform the Contract and also unable to inform it that it has done so" ? Or could it mean "XXX will then be unable to perform ... "? But I still don't get the thing about communicating.
I'm wondering whether this is an elliptical way of expressing something a little less puzzling. Is this really about one party not being able to communicate with another? Or is this a potential drafting error?
Online service agreement relating to a Web application. This is about an agreement with a business introducer. It's just said that XXX, which owns the application/platform, will have to process the introducer's personal data. So there's quite a bit of GDPR-related boilerplate ... then...
"
...
L’Apporteur dispose également du droit d’introduire une réclamation auprès de la Commission Nationale de l’Informatique et des Libertés s’il considère que le traitement opéré par XXX constitue une violation de ses données personnelles.
En revanche, l’Apporteur reconnait expressément qu’il ne dispose pas du droit de s’opposer au traitement de ses données et du droit à leur effacement sauf à résilier le Contrat et le compte de l’Apporteur sur la plateforme, à défaut pour XXX de pouvoir exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet."
I apologise if, to you, the meaning of the latter sentence is a lucid as daylight ... and also makes sense. I think I've got something of a blind spot about it.
... "... should XXX be unable to perform the Contract and also unable to inform it that it has done so" ? Or could it mean "XXX will then be unable to perform ... "? But I still don't get the thing about communicating.
I'm wondering whether this is an elliptical way of expressing something a little less puzzling. Is this really about one party not being able to communicate with another? Or is this a potential drafting error?
Proposed translations
-2
10 hrs
French term (edited):
à défaut pour XYZ de pouvoir (exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet)
Selected
as otherwise it would not be possible for XYZ (to ...)
l’Apporteur reconnaît expressément qu’il ne dispose pas du droit de s’opposer au traitement de ses données et du droit à leur effacement [...] à défaut pour XXX de pouvoir exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet"
=
... l’Apporteur acknowledges explicitly that they have no right to oppose the processing of their data nor the right to request its deletion [...] as otherwise (i.e. if that acknowledgment were to be missing) XYZ wouldn't be able to perform the contract nor communicate with them ( l’Apporteur) to that end.
if you look at the whole of
(A)
L’Apporteur dispose également du droit d’introduire une réclamation auprès de la Commission Nationale de l’Informatique et des Libertés s’il considère que le traitement opéré par XYZ constitue une violation de ses données personnelles.
(B)
En revanche, l’Apporteur reconnait expressément qu’il ne dispose pas du droit de s’opposer au traitement de ses données et du droit à leur effacement sauf à résilier le Contrat et le compte de l’Apporteur sur la plateforme, à défaut pour XYZ de pouvoir exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet."
the contrast between (A) and (B) is about what l’Apporteur can or can not do about their personal data being used by XYZ
(A) is another example of the law (that would apply anyway) being repeated in the text of the contract - no more than a reminder of the rights of L’Apporteur
(B) is about l’Apporteur explicitly acknowledging that as long there is a contract with XYZ, XYZ will have the right to use the personal data of L’Apporteur to the extent necessary for the execution of the contract "as otherwise it would be impossible for XYZ to execute/perform the contract"
in
l’Apporteur reconnaît expressément qu’il ne dispose pas du droit de s’opposer au traitement de ses données et du droit à leur effacement sauf à résilier le Contrat et le compte de l’Apporteur sur la plateforme, à défaut pour XXX de pouvoir exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet."
"sauf à résilier le Contrat et le compte de l’Apporteur sur la plateforme"
is an inserted part, just a digression from the main flow; the main clause is:
... l’Apporteur reconnaît expressément qu’il ne dispose pas du droit de s’opposer au traitement de ses données et du droit à leur effacement [...] à défaut pour XYZ de pouvoir exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet"
so "à défaut" relates to l’Apporteur recognising that they have no right to oppose the processing of their data nor the right to demand their deletion. i.e. if that "express acknowledgment" happened to be missing (faire défaut), XYZ couldn't execute/perform the contract nor communicate with l’Apporteur.
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Note added at 10 hrs (2020-07-28 21:54:46 GMT)
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so it is "failing which / otherwise"
but the element that shouldn't be missing is the "express acknowledgment that ...", the part about cancelling the contract is just an inserted digression
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Adrian MM.
: an artificial parsing of a set phrase, plus execute the contract is a false friend meaning sign vs. *perform* it. XXX cannot be taken to have NB repudiated the contract though able & willing to perform and advise as much. // cut to your *pouvoir* twist.
1 hr
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OK for "perform" but you are blissfully ignoring the specific context of this ST. It's not about anyone's "willingness" or "repudiation" it's about rights to use personal data. Start by correctly analysing the whole sentence first? Just an idea ...
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disagree |
AllegroTrans
: This really much too clonky and confusing
16 hrs
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Confusing??? Certainly is if looking at a whole sentence is too confusing. Would love to see what would you do with a sentence spread over a page or two ... with sub-sub clauses to no end.
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks. My ultimate interpretation of this is closest to the first of yours, here. In fact, not least bearing in mind the context, I can't see how anything else could possibly work."
+1
35 mins
without prejudice to; notwithstanding
In using lateral thinking Cockney finking/ Irish tinking to construe this document - rather than interpreting a piece of legislation - pls. note that the phrase would go on with a persent participle of being able or allowed to: pace PhB a 'gerundive'.
Also note carefully AMM's comment on the German 'equivalent' in the 2nd. web ref.
Also note carefully AMM's comment on the German 'equivalent' in the 2nd. web ref.
Reference:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/other/849392-a-defaut-pour.html
http://transblawg.eu/2003/10/28/notwithstanding-unbeschadet/
Note from asker:
Thanks. For me "notwithstanding" is synonymous with "despite". Is this how you mean it here? So "The Introducer acknowledges that it is not entitled to object to processing of its data or to delete it, unless the Contract and the account are terminated, ***despite*** XXX not being able to perform the Contract and communicate to this effect"? I don't see how that can be the meaning: if XXX is not able to perform, independently of what the introducer does, all bets were off anyway. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
AllegroTrans
: I think "notwithstanding" does it neatly here
49 mins
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Thanks, AT.
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agree |
ph-b (X)
: I agree with "notwithstanding" (notwithstanding X not being able to...). See discussion. Or perhaps not - did I misunderstand you "notwithstanding"?
2 hrs
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You understood right.
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neutral |
philgoddard
: I.!!
4 hrs
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2. !!
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disagree |
Daryo
: I can't see that kind of connection / relation between the elements of this sentence.
Why don't you apply your own recipe - the one about the wood and the trees?
9 hrs
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Better to try and see the wood for the trees and work out what the drafting is trying to put across.
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1 hr
in general so that / by default, so that
While "in general" isn't the usual way one would translate "à défaut", I think that is how one would express this in English. Having set out that the Introducer or Contributor has granted XXX rights over their personal information, it goes on to say that the purpose of this is:
in general, so that XXX can execute the Contract and communicate with them to that end.
in general, so that XXX can execute the Contract and communicate with them to that end.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Daryo
: " by default" sounds like a false friend - that would be "par défaut", not "à défaut"
7 hrs
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1 day 7 hrs
in the event of XXX failing to execute the Contract
The text is not clearly written. Instead of 'à défaut pour XXX de pouvoir exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet', the text should be written this way:.
'à défaut de ce que XXX ne puisse pas exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet."
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Note added at 1 day 14 hrs (2020-07-30 01:03:14 GMT)
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Erratum: PUISSE instead of NE puisse PAS
'à défaut de ce que XXX ne puisse pas exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet."
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Note added at 1 day 14 hrs (2020-07-30 01:03:14 GMT)
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Erratum: PUISSE instead of NE puisse PAS
Discussion
But it's still good enough, as it's anyway just one more reminder of the applicable law - the GDPR does say anyway that data can be held and processed as long and in the way necessary for the performance of the contract - and THAT is what is applicable whatever you put (or not) in the contract.
Thanks to everyone who helped with this.
and rereading again and again the whole text, I did finally found a slightly different interpretation, based on the fact that
"sauf à résilier le Contrat et le compte de l’Apporteur sur la plateforme"
is only an inserted part, so "à défaut" relates to what comes before that inserted part.
It is a tricky text.
Just one lingering thing though: as communiquer is in the infinitive it might go with pouvoir... "in order for XXX to be able to perform the Contract and to be able to communicate with it to that effect" or it might stand on its own: "in order for XXX to be able to perform the Contract and in order to communicate with it to that effect".
In both cases the fact of communicating is conditional... on something.
Either way, once again, I'm just wondering whether that is about the fact that if this "personal data" is deleted this also means that XXX wouldn't, after that, have any contact details for the introducer, so wouldn't be able to contact them. Actually such an explanation is unnecessary for a translation: the English translation can be as uncommitted/vague/unexplained on the point as the French source. I just have an itch to understand what it's about.
My reading is like Tony M's in this discussion:
"Failing that/without which" means if they don't cancel their account, then XXX is able to execute the contract and notifies the client of this
You could also use "otherwise":
The client can cancel his account, otherwise, XXX notifies the client that it is proceeding to execute the contract.
It's all about reading it with the 'sauf à... [mais] à défaut (de l'avoir fait)...'
I think they're just trying to say that execution of the agreement and Apporteur's membership are contingent on their not refusing...
My reading is that it is saying the opposite (!): that in that case XXX can't (in fact won't be able to) perform the contract.
I'd be interested in others could say which of these interpretations (if either) they share.
Confused... !
Could the communication thing just be to do with the fact that if the personal data is deleted XXX will indeed lack a means of contacting the introducer?
Is the infinitive not possible is we consider it as being a gerund (= substantive)? As you say, deprecated or not, we do see it a lot, at least in texts other than legal ones.
Ignore the ban on infinitives. Indeed, from the same people: Défaut de + infinitif. Pour certains jurilinguistes, la construction défaut de + infinitif est un calque de l’anglais failure to. D’autres jurilinguistes l’acceptent. Défaut de comparaître. Défaut de plaider. https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/clefsfp/...
See also: À/au défaut de (qqc., qqn). En l'absence de. (Quasi-) synon. faute de.Je voulais qu'à défaut de terre consacrée, elle eût au moins un chaste linceul. https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/défaut And again: À DÉFAUT DE : dans le cas d'un manque de… Le Grand Robert de la langue français.
[EDIT] See post at 16.39
à cet effet = "l'effet" est de "pouvoir exécuter le Contrat"
i.e. it is in fact a reference to an immediately preceding element of the sentence, no problems about that;
so in practice it would include anything related to "exécuter le Contrat", and as it's about "communications" it would be "any communications related to the contract"
To me it can't therefore (unless the drafting is defective) just refer to "anything related to the contract".
it's simply about talking to / sending all sort of messages/"communications" - i.e. as long there is a contract there is a presumption that "exchange of messages" / "communications" between the parties about anything related to the contract is ongoing - allowed and necessary.
This at first seemed to me to be quite bad grammar, which would make it different to the rest of the contract, and the other contracts (there are several). But I can see how a construction of this kind could fly...
If this is the meaning I still don't really understand about the communication angle: if the objection and/or request for deletion is not made then XXX will be fine about communicating ... communicating about what? And why would raising an objection to processing hinder this? ... hmm.
Oh, maybe "failing which XXX shall be able to perform and let the introducer know that it can perform", or words to that effect ... ? The end of that clause would still be rather puzzling and redundant-seeming in that case, for me.
I would interpret it as
En revanche, l’Apporteur reconnaît expressément qu’il ne dispose pas du droit de s’opposer au traitement de ses données et du droit à leur effacement sauf à résilier le Contrat et le compte de l’Apporteur sur la plateforme,
à défaut (= au cas où l’Apporteur n'a pas encore résilié le Contrat et son compte sur la plateforme = la résiliation du contrat "fait défaut" / n'est pas encore intervenue)
(dans ce cas-là) pour XXX de pouvoir exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec lui à cet effet."
= tant que l’Apporteur n'a pas encore résilié le Contrat et son compte sur la plateforme, XXX a le droit de traiter les données de l’Apporteur dans la mesure où cela est nécessaire pour "pouvoir exécuter le Contrat et communiquer avec l’Apporteur à cet effet"
Can't see what else would make much sense.