May 26, 2020 16:22
4 yrs ago
58 viewers *
French term
auprès de (in a passive construction)
French to English
Law/Patents
Government / Politics
Statuts of a high-level grant-awarding scientific institution.
"
...
Dans les régions où sont implantées plusieurs unités de recherche de l'institut, le directeur général peut nommer des administrateurs délégués.
Il peut être créé auprès des administrateurs délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs composés de membres élus par les personnels des unités de recherche et des services communs de la région et par les autres personnels de l'institut exerçant leur activité dans la région.
Les modalités des élections, la composition et les règles de fonctionnement de ces conseils sont fixées par arrêté conjoint des ministres de tutelle."
Auprès de is always a bit of a tricky one in my experience. Here I am not quite sure whether it means something like "for (the benefit of)" or something like "besides/with" or something like "in relation to".
I believe the administrateurs délégués don't have any say in the matter. But even on that I am not entirely sure with this passive grammatical construction.
"
...
Dans les régions où sont implantées plusieurs unités de recherche de l'institut, le directeur général peut nommer des administrateurs délégués.
Il peut être créé auprès des administrateurs délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs composés de membres élus par les personnels des unités de recherche et des services communs de la région et par les autres personnels de l'institut exerçant leur activité dans la région.
Les modalités des élections, la composition et les règles de fonctionnement de ces conseils sont fixées par arrêté conjoint des ministres de tutelle."
Auprès de is always a bit of a tricky one in my experience. Here I am not quite sure whether it means something like "for (the benefit of)" or something like "besides/with" or something like "in relation to".
I believe the administrateurs délégués don't have any say in the matter. But even on that I am not entirely sure with this passive grammatical construction.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+6
15 mins
Danielle Coleman
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Accredited and highly experienced
Native in: English (Variant: British) 
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, Latvian to English, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
3
Selected
reporting to
I've looked at the original source text for this and some related material (Order of 26 September 1984, link below). It seems clear from that the conseils scientifiques consultatifs are not appointed by the administrateurs délégués. I think the sense here is more likely to be the fifth sense given by Larousse online: 'En relation avec quelqu'un, une institution : Un ambassadeur auprès d'un État étranger.' As far as I can understand it, the conseils are there to assist the administrateurs délégués by providing them with information.
So, perhaps something like 'Advisory scientific committees may be constituted, reporting to the managing directors. They shall be made up of ...'.
So, perhaps something like 'Advisory scientific committees may be constituted, reporting to the managing directors. They shall be made up of ...'.
Note from asker:
| Thanks for the useful links. So the sense is quite specifically "for (the benefit of)", but you go one step further to conclude that it implies a formal relationship of dependency. That may be clear from the legislation, but I'm not sure it can be deduced from the sentence alone. Which isn't to say that I won't translate it as per your suggestion! |
| I spoke too soon. See the fabulous definition page unearthed by ph-b: https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/aupr%C3%A8s ... "Exprime outre le lieu une idée de mission et de présence accréditée" |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Yolanda Broad
9 mins
|
| agree |
ph-b (X)
: "assist" is the 1st thing that came to mind before I saw your answer. Not for me to discuss your choice of words, but, yes, they're created to assist and report to the administrateurs.
12 mins
|
| agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
20 mins
|
| agree |
Libby Cohen
: Especially in light of the explanation provided by ph-b.
35 mins
|
|
Yes, very useful definition from ph-b. Thank you.
|
|
| agree |
Tony M
52 mins
|
| agree |
AllegroTrans
3 hrs
|
| neutral |
Daryo
: yes and no - wouldn't that imply some kind of hierarchical subordination? I don't see advisers or a consultative body "reporting" the same way as a sales manager would be "reporting" to the MD - it's not that kind of relationship.
8 hrs
|
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks"
+1
12 mins
Timothy Rake
United States
United States
Native in English
Works in field
United States
My business is translating your business
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
16
with
In my reading of this, it seems straightforward ...the syntax is reversed with the impersonal "il peut être créé..." I read it as saying "consultative scientific councils/advisory boards may be created with managing directors/delegated administrators
-2
1 hr
Juan Arturo Blackmore Zerón
Mexico
Mexico
Works in field
Mexico
Confianza, certeza, creatividad.
Native in: Spanish (Variant: Mexican)
Works in: English to Spanish, Italian to Spanish, French to Spanish, and 6 more.
including/consistent of/formed by
It can be created with/including/ consistent of/formed by the managing directors.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Tony M
: As Ph-B has pointed out, this is not the sense of 'auprès de' in this text — and even if it had been, 'consistent of' is not correct EN.
20 mins
|
| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: I agree with above disagree
3 hrs
|
-1
5 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: Scottish, British) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 6 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
8
French term (edited):
(CH) Il peut être créé auprès de (impersonal construction) ... des conseils scientifiques consultat
There may be created out of the ranks of ... consultative scientific committees
The first ProZ weblinked answer of 'from among' triggered my idea of from the ranks of.
Interestingly for grammatical purposes, it is not 'Ils peuvent être créé(s)
and the Germanic-type 'es können bei den Geschäftsführern / führinnen .... errichtet werden' construction, plus Elizabeth R's discussion entry of an ambiguity, suggests that this is not France, but Belgium, Lux or Switzerland etc.
Interestingly for grammatical purposes, it is not 'Ils peuvent être créé(s)
and the Germanic-type 'es können bei den Geschäftsführern / führinnen .... errichtet werden' construction, plus Elizabeth R's discussion entry of an ambiguity, suggests that this is not France, but Belgium, Lux or Switzerland etc.
Reference:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/education-pedagogy/2410733-auprès-des-here.html
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Daryo
: don't know German so have no idea how you extrapolated this from the text in German, but HERE it's not "out of the ranks of" - these are two different groups: managers vs scientists.
3 hrs
|
| disagree |
Tony M
: As Ph-B has said, this is not the meaning of 'auprès de' in this situation.
8 hrs
|
+1
8 hrs
French term (edited):
[des conseils scientifiques consultatifs] auprès [des administrateurs délégués]
[...] attached to [...]
this is the same kind of relationship as between an expert (or a court interpreter) and the court using their expertise.
as in
"traducteurs interprètes assermentés auprès du tribunal XYZ"
Il peut être créé auprès des administrateurs délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs
=
It is possible to create Advisory scientific committees (?) attached to delegated directors(/managers ?)
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Note added at 8 hrs (2020-05-27 00:53:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
IOW the beneficiary of their wisdom/opinions would be the "administrateur délégué" to which they are attached.
as in
"traducteurs interprètes assermentés auprès du tribunal XYZ"
Il peut être créé auprès des administrateurs délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs
=
It is possible to create Advisory scientific committees (?) attached to delegated directors(/managers ?)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2020-05-27 00:53:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
IOW the beneficiary of their wisdom/opinions would be the "administrateur délégué" to which they are attached.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
5 hrs
|
|
Thanks!
|
|
| neutral |
Danielle Coleman
: I agree that the beneficiary of their wisdom/opinions would the "administrateur délégué", but I think "reporting to" captures that relationship better than "attached to". "Reporting to" does not necessarily imply a relationship of subordination.
12 hrs
|
-4
45 mins
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
experienced and well qualified linguist
Native in: English (Variant: UK)
Works in: Spanish to English, English, Spanish, and 3 more.
next to / with / in the opinion of
The above definition is from a dictionary.
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Note added at 14 hrs (2020-05-27 07:20:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
If 'with' is not acceptable as a translation of 'auprès de' then 'for the benefit of' could be an alternative used instead of 'with' in the above sentence.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2020-05-27 07:20:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
If 'with' is not acceptable as a translation of 'auprès de' then 'for the benefit of' could be an alternative used instead of 'with' in the above sentence.
Example sentence:
Il peut être créé auprès des administrations délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs composé des membres élus par les personnels des unités de recherches et des services communes de la région et par des autres personnels et de l'instit
It can be created with administrations delegated from the scientific consulting councils composed of members who were elected by staff from a research unit and from communal services in the region and other members in the Institute.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Tony M
: Completely rong interpretation of the source text, and not terribly meaningful nor idiomatic in EN either. This is the sort of situation where basic dictionaires somply do not suffice.
35 mins
|
| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: Disparate array of suggestions, none of which are ccontextual; we can all use the dictionary
3 hrs
|
| disagree |
Daryo
: It never occured to me before, but looks like dictionaries are like dynamite - handle with care / use according to the manual, or the result is not nice...
7 hrs
|
| disagree |
SafeTex
: So the "panel" can be put together next to, with, and in the opinion of the delegates ?!?!?! I assume you are offering us a choice and not all three terms but how do we even know which one to chose from your selection? And they don't mean the same thing
10 hrs
|
Discussion
As I said, I find auprès de a tricky one. Thanks.
3. [Introd. un compl. désignant une pers. physique exerçant des fonctions officielles ou une pers. morale (organisme, institution officiels)] Exprime outre le lieu une idée de mission et de présence accréditée. Ex. : ...le messager de Beethoven auprès de Goethe... - CNRTL
PS I was referring to one of the comments to one of the answers.
PPS "for the benefit of" could work, but I would say "with" is the closest of your suggestions : roughly, they're with the administrators to help them. I like Danielle's answers. And Timothy is right about the impersonal.
1) "for the benefit of"? Or
2) "with"? Or
3) could it even by "by" (agency)? Or
4) is it in fact ambiguous?
The phrase is no mystery whatsoever, I'm just wondering what the precise meaning of auprès de is here. The fact I was drawing attention to in the question was merely that the choice of this particular construction may make the meaning of auprès de slightly harder to pin down than with another way of putting it.
If you re-write it as Timothy has done without the impersonal, it seems to me clear enough: « des conseils scientifiques consultatifs peuvent être créé... »