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Dec 16, 2020 13:46
3 yrs ago
58 viewers *
French term

Trademark symbol

French to English Marketing Business/Commerce (general) use of trademark with brand name
Hi everyone,

I'm translating a marketing document from French to GB English.
Do I need to translate the r trademark sign standing next to a brand name?
I've seen somewhere that it depends on the legislation but I'm curious to know how others do.
Thanks!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 ™
4 +1 Include it, but only the first time it appears
Change log

Dec 16, 2020 16:05: Rachel Fell changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Dec 16, 2020 18:43: writeaway changed "Field (write-in)" from "Marketing" to "use of trademark with brand name"

Dec 16, 2020 23:41: Yolanda Broad changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (2): AllegroTrans, philgoddard

Non-PRO (3): Barbara Carrara, Yvonne Gallagher, Rachel Fell

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

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Discussion

AllegroTrans Dec 19, 2020:
@ Phil What's the difference between a tourist brochure and a marketing brochure? Well the first is likely to be informing you about a tourist destination, the second could well be about marketing a product alongside which is a trademark symbol.
So symbol in, symbol out, avoids inaccuracy and doubt. That's poetry...
philgoddard Dec 18, 2020:
"If you're translating say, a press article or a tourist brochure, this might be quite accceptable.... Here the Asker says it's a marketing brochure and I definitely don't consider it correct to drop the trademark."
What's the difference between a tourist brochure and a marketing brochure?
AllegroTrans Dec 18, 2020:
@ Phil I have to disagree. If you're translating say, a press article or a tourist brochure, this might be quite accceptable. However, in any kind of official document the company name and any trademark should be replicated just as in the source text. Doing otherwise is only likely to result in queries (and even legal chhallenges). The only exception I make to this rule is where French legal texts frequently keep repeating "la société xxc" - in this case I would only translate as "the company xxx" in the first occurrence.
Here the Asker says it's a marketing brochure and I definitely don't consider it correct to drop the trademark
philgoddard Dec 18, 2020:
It looks like I'm outnumbered, even though I gave two references from reliable sources and Shiam is just saying take my word for it.

Here's a very similar example. A company is called (say) Johnson Ltd. The first time you mention it in a document, you call it Johnson Ltd. After that, you just say Johnson. If you kept repeating Ltd, it would look silly.
Yvonne Gallagher Dec 17, 2020:
@writeaway Thanks for explaining that. I've been in Proz and involved in Kudoz over 10 years now and never saw that happen before. Hence my bewilderment
writeaway Dec 17, 2020:
@Yvonne Agree it's standard practice (and common knowledge for many translators) to include TM symbols that are part of the name. As for the vote back to pro, the deciding vote was cast by a moderator and while all votes are equal, some are more equal than others.
Yvonne Gallagher Dec 17, 2020:
I didn't see any unfriendliness here to Asker at all. Anna's question was answered within 5 minutes here in Dbox. Not a translation/terminology question as such but to do with marketing. I got rapped on the knuckles rather severely years ago by a proofreader/agency when I didn't replicate all the R/Tm symbols so have been copying and pasting all of them, as in the ST, ever since and see no problem with that. So, saying it should be included "only the first time it appears" is quite wrong imho. What I don't understand now is how 2 votes are enough to move this back to Pro? I was under the impression that 4 votes were required?
AllegroTrans Dec 16, 2020:
Replicate the source text use of the symbol Definitely. It doesn't depend on the legidslation and anyway, that isn't the translator's problem
writeaway Dec 16, 2020:
Nothing has been deleted But a heads up for the next time surely isn't unfriendly?
philgoddard Dec 16, 2020:
Writeaway Sometimes, when a new poster asks a question in the wrong place, it's easier and more friendly to answer it than to point out their mistake and delete it.
writeaway Dec 16, 2020:
I also agree with Andrew As for the pro or non-pro, it's not actually a Kudoz question at all. Should be posted in the forums.
philgoddard Dec 16, 2020:
This is a pro question in my opinion. It's not something that any random bilingual person would know.
Yvonne Gallagher Dec 16, 2020:
agree with Andrew don't translate
Andrew Mason Dec 16, 2020:
Dear Anna Personally, I always leave TM or R totally unchanged when translating French to English.

Proposed translations

+4
2 hrs
French term (edited): Trademark symbol
Selected

™

I believe it is important to leave it, especially if it is a registered trademark in GB.
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : agree-it's that simple to copy/paste and it should be kept as it's part of the official name. This doesn't just apply to GB
9 mins
agree Rachel Fell : or just keep the "R", as in the French and as in e.g. "Betnovate ®"
4 hrs
agree Yvonne Gallagher : Simple copy/paste. Keep unchanged as already said in Dbox
4 hrs
neutral Barbara Carrara : The asker was specifically referring to the ® symbol, not the ™ one.
20 hrs
agree AllegroTrans : Whether "®" or "TM" this should be retained for every incidence in the text - not the translator's call to edit this out
2 days 8 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks everyone! I'm quite new to Kudoz so I'm sorry if there has been misunderstandings from my part. I appreciate your answers and reactions. The question wasn't whether I had to leave it or not, but how to translate it. Thing is the author left it the whole time so I don't see why I would remove it like that with no reason. I thing I'm going to leave it with the (R) sign next to the brand name."
+1
12 mins

Include it, but only the first time it appears

When using your trademark, place it prominently, so readers notice it and the adjoining symbol immediately. This only requires using the symbol in the first primary or key use of the mark in the document’s text or headings. Sometimes it’s appropriate to place the symbol as part of a logo or headers on the page and accompanying use of the name in the text. From that point on, the reader is on notice—and the writer has done what is required to ensure notice of, and no confusion over, the status of the mark or the claimed IP interest.
http://www.probizwriters.com/PBW-blog/index.php/trademark-sy...

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Note added at 14 mins (2020-12-16 14:00:49 GMT)
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If you use it each time the word appears, (a) it looks unattractive, and (b) you're telling the reader the same thing over and over again.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2020-12-16 21:11:58 GMT)
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"It is a common misconception that each and every instance of the mark should bear a trademark symbol. Overuse creates visual clutter and may detract from the aesthetic appeal of the piece."
http://www.forbes.com/sites/work-in-progress/2014/03/12/when...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : this is not an answer to the question "Do I need to translate the r trademark sign standing next to a brand name?" but Andrew already answered in Dbox.
34 mins
It is an answer, unlike a discussion entry. If I suggest an answer in the discussion box, it's because I'm not sure or I don't have time to give a fully referenced answer.
agree Tony M : There is really no 'translation' possible, and the 3 common marks (R), (C) and (TM) are internationally recognized. And I agree about the non-repetition (unless that is the particular company's house style)
1 hr
Exactly. Thank you.
neutral writeaway : This isn't a Kudoz question. Anyway it's been answered in the Dbox. And why only include it once since it's part of the official name?
1 hr
1. It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask - you or I may know the answer, but someone encountering this for the first time might not. 2. Like I said, a discussion entry is not an answer. 3. I've explained why, and given a reference.
neutral Rachel Fell : No, not just the first time it appears, and it's marketing for the UK.
6 hrs
I've given two references saying why you shouldn't keep repeating it.
neutral AllegroTrans : It should appear in the same places in the output text as it does in the source text; if the source text writer hasn't gone with the style guides that you have referenced, it isn't the translator's call to do so
11 hrs
neutral Steve Robbie : This is good advice for *writers*, but translators should respect the decision by the authors of the source text. It's not the translator's call.
1 day 2 hrs
I am a writer. You are a writer. If you don't write, your job might just as well be done by Google Translate.
Something went wrong...
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