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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
Jan 13, 2009 13:43
15 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

houe - angle aigu

French to English Science Botany gardening tools
Outil qui permet de travailler le sol à la surface. Il consiste en un soc, une large lame d'acier qui forme un angle aigu avec le manche, que l'on tire vers soi.

I asked about this term in December and came to the conclusion that it was a draw hoe. However, I am now puzzled by this defintion in which they say the blade forms 'un angle aigu avec le manche'. I thought it formed a right angle. Any opinions about this very welcome! I'm getting confused!

Many thanks in advance!



Sheila
Proposed translations (English)
4 acute-angled hoe
3 hoe
3 Dutch hoe
3 mattock
3 [blade] that forms an acute angle with the handle
References
The problem may simply come from the definition

Discussion

Sheila Hardie (asker) May 1, 2009:
Thanks! I just wanted to thank everyone for their answers and comments. Sorry for taking so long to close this question. I never did get a clear answer from the client, so still remain in the dark about the outcome. I was waiting to see if I could resolve the issue before closing the question, but this seems unlikely now. Thanks again for all your help! Sheila
Michael GREEN Jan 14, 2009:
References For some reason I am unable to post references, so I'll have to use the "Discussion" section.
This is a US/Canada site with illustrations of different types of "hoes" : "grub hoe" and "Italian hoe" correspond to the "houe" I saw in my local garden center :
http://www.easydigging.com/Store/azada_USA_Canada.html

and these are links to "field hoe" sites with illustrations:
http://www.vigoro.com/ProductCategories/Garden Tools/ForgedF...
and

http://www.amazon.com/Cotton-Thinning-Field-Hoe-FIELD/dp/B00...
Michael GREEN Jan 14, 2009:
Heavy hoes/garden hoes Following my visit to my local garden centre (see below) I searched the web for "heavy hoes" and came up with this American site (unillustrated): http://www.jordanseeds.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse&id=45... which appears to distinguish between "garden hoes" (=binette ?), "field hoes" (=houe ?) and "scuffle hoes" (=Dutch hoe in UK parlance?)
So I wonder if you might use the term "field hoe" for your "houe à angle aigu" ?
Michael GREEN Jan 14, 2009:
Reporting back ... I have just been given a quick course in garden tools ;o).
In answer to my questions, "What's the difference between a binette and a houe", and "what is a houe à angle aigu", I was shown a range of "binettes" which were all what I would call "garden hoes", and a "houe" which was a far more sturdy instrument, with a shorter handle (but still two-handed). The "houe" is used (I was told) for breaking up previously untilled, or very heavy soil, while the binette is used for weeding a cultivated patch. The "houe à angle aigu" surprised my friendly expert : as he pointed out, all the "houes" have a blade which is more or less at an acute angle to the handle, even though some were almost at right angles.
So apart from my neatly-trimmed hair, I am not much further forward.
I suggest you just call the thing an "acute angled draw hoe" unless you can obtain an illustration to back up your choice.
Michael GREEN Jan 14, 2009:
Hair cut (suite ...) My deliciously pretty hairdresser could cut my hair with a lawnmower and I wouldn't ... turn a hair ... but I've not seen a hoe among her tools so I think I'm safe ...
Sheila Hardie (asker) Jan 14, 2009:
Hair cut Just as long as they don't try to cut your hair with one of them :)) Seriously, I'd be very interested to know what they say. The folk at the garden centre, not the hairdresser's that is! Thanks again! Sheila
Michael GREEN Jan 14, 2009:
Field work ;o) Hi Sheila, Thanks for your thanks but I've not yet made any useful contributions .... perhaps that will change later this morning. I am about to go out (to have my hair cut!) and I will pop in to a local garden centre to ask them a) what they consider to be the difference between a "houe" and a "binette" and b) if "houe à angle aigu" means anything to them.
Suite au prochain numéro ...
Sheila Hardie (asker) Jan 14, 2009:
Hi Michael Many thanks for all your help! It's greatly appreciated. To be honest, I am not sure who this text is aimed at. But it is not a PhD thesis (I don't think!). Nor is it for small children, I wouldn't imagine. It's a gardening glossary. However, it does go into great detail about all aspects of gardening. And make distinctions between houe and binette. Also many other tools... I agree that the angle doesn't seem totally essential, but they actually modified the original text to add this information, so it must be important to the client. I think I may have to check with the client and see what they say. If they could send me a picture of this implement, it would be fantastic. But I doubt that will be possible. Thanks again! Sheila P.S. Sorry I wasn't clear about my previous question - for some reason, the computer I was working at yesterday afternoon would not let me paste a link to that question!
Michael GREEN Jan 14, 2009:
My ha'pence-worth Until SJLD posted his comment (and I entirely agree about peer grading) I didn't bother to look up the previous question - Sheila's comment wasn't very precise ("I asked about this term in December") and obviously I should have done. I think we have all been going round in circles. There are more terms in French for this type of tool than in English (sarcleur/binette/houe/rabassier etc) and the topic was largely covered on 14th December. Whatever the angle of the weapon, it's still called a "hoe" in English. It is clearly not a "Dutch hoe", since it is used by drawing it to towards the user, so IMHO in the absence of an illustration it can only be called a "hoe" or a "draw hoe". I agree with Lionel that the angle of the blade doesn't necessarily need to be specified. If the context calls for it, surely Kashew's suggestion is the best solution? Who is this text intended for anyway? If it is explaining garden tools to children, keep it simple - if it is a PhD thesis on agricultural implements you may need to be more precise ...
SJLD Jan 13, 2009:
linguistic discussions... ... is somewhat of a euphemism lol. I'm not upset, but it is is rather demotivating. I know you didn't make the glossary entry. I know who did *roll eyes*. The automatic peer grading thingy is ridiculous.
Sheila Hardie (asker) Jan 13, 2009:
Linguistic discussions I just realised. This area should be reserved for lingistic discussions! Sorry about that.
Sheila Hardie (asker) Jan 13, 2009:
Explanation Dear SJLD. I am very sorry you are not happy about this situation. Please let me explain. First of all, I did not close the question myself because I was waiting for confirmation from the client as to which definition they wanted to accept. This took some time because of the Chirstmas holidays. By that time it had been closed and the answer chosen automatically by peer grading. Secondly, as you might have noticed, I did not make the glossary entry myself. Nevertheless, I am very sorry you are upset by this and am very grateful for your help with these defintions. Sheila
SJLD Jan 13, 2009:
It might be nice to close questions correctly http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/botany/2987032-b...

so we don't get glossary entries like "houe vs binette" = "See below!"

Furthermore if you did choose my suggestion (as I am led to believe), it would have been polite to acknowledge it. Thank you.
Rachel Fell Jan 13, 2009:
maybe like this? http://www.gardenshoponline.com/catalog/product_info.php?pro...
kashew Jan 13, 2009:
As MG suggests: get the client's picture of the tool.
Michael GREEN Jan 13, 2009:
Having confused the issue with "Dutch hoe", I'm reluctant to stick my neck out again (too many hoes being waved around) but isn't a "binette" simply a "one-handed hoe" ?
Miranda Joubioux (X) Jan 13, 2009:
The one you translated as "cutting hoe" is the dutch hoe (which is pushed and pulled). The one referred to here does seem to be the draw hoe, since it specifically mentions this. See my 3rd reference.
Sheila Hardie (asker) Jan 13, 2009:
Definitions Hi Michael, I wish I did, but no I have no illustrations, just definitions. The definition in my text for 'binette' by the way is 'Outil permettant d'ameublir les couches superficielles du sol par temps sec et qui coupe les mauvaises herbes. Elle est plus petite que la houe'. So, I translated that one as 'cutting hoe'. The definition for 'houe' is the one given in the text in my question.
Michael GREEN Jan 13, 2009:
Do you have an illustration, Sheila ? If the blade is more or less at a right angle I think "draw hoe" is correct, but if it's like this one you may need another term (the hoe in this link is called an "Asian hoe") :http://maydreamsgardens.blogspot.com/20
Sheila Hardie (asker) Jan 13, 2009:
Houe vs binette My problem is that if houe is indeed a draw hoe (and that is how I have translated it, as opposed to the cutting hoe / binette), all the descriptions and illustrations I can find say that the handle is set at right angles to the blade and does not form an acute angle. This is why I'm confused!

Proposed translations

11 mins

hoe

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=429965

Houe = binette

I'm not sure that "acute/sharp angle ?" has to be specified
Something went wrong...
18 mins

Dutch hoe

Depends how the "acute" angle is measured with the line of the handle - but perhaps it's this (see link)

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Note added at 23 mins (2009-01-13 14:07:25 GMT)
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If the "acute" angle is measured in the other direction, I think you would be right to call it a "draw hoe" :
http://www.spear-and-jackson.com/fr/county-draw-hoe
Example sentence:

Carbon Steel Dutch Hoe with Ash Handle

Reference:

http://www.gardening-tools-direct.co.uk/Merchant2/4.13/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Product_Code=DRA89095&Category_Code=Hoes

Peer comment(s):
neutral Jack Dunwell : Michael, I push my dutch hoe. Should I try it the other way?Yes, well, I was always a port start specialist until I wrote off an albacore and sank a Gibraltar harbour pilot. I think Pulling a dutch hoe is an afterthought. HNY,M
23 mins
Well Jack, remind me not to let you have the helm if we sail together ... ;o) But seriously, I believe Dutch hoes are pushed AND pulled, which disqualifies my suggestion anyway ! HNY, by the way .../ Would love to hear that story sometime !!
Something went wrong...
1 hr

mattock

Perhaps this is the term you need. See my references below.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Jack Dunwell : M, what I have used as a "mattock" is more of an "entrenching tool" than a delicate thing for young plants
9 mins
I know, but it's the angle of the tool that's interesting and a light mattock might be what it refers to.
neutral Michael GREEN : For a mariner, fourth seems to do a lot of gardening, but I'm inclined to agree with him. A mattock is rather too far from Sheila's definition.
20 mins
Something went wrong...
13 mins

[blade] that forms an acute angle with the handle

LE BITUME D’ALSACE
- [ Translate this page ]
L’un est une pelle de fer, qui fait un angle aigu avec le manche. Sa partie antérieure est formée en demi-lune. L’autre est simplement un coin de fer, ...
membres.lycos.fr/daney/spielmann.htm - 48k - Cached - Similar pages

The Cardiff paediatric laryngoscope blade: a comparison with the ...
forms an acute angle with the base of the tongue, and so. can be difficult to see [1–4]. ... blade forms an 85° angle with the handle. The Cardiff ...
www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/anae/2004/00000059/00000... - Similar pages
by RM Jones - 2004 - Cited by 1 - Related articles - All 5 versions


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Note added at 14 mins (2009-01-13 13:58:06 GMT)
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Full text of "The rural mind and social welfare;"
In this first form of the hoe, the point is turned so as to form an acute angle with the handle to which it is attached. Hence the soil is not tilled in the ...
www.archive.org/stream/ruralmindsocialw00grovuoft/ruralmind... - 303k - Cached - Similar pages

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Note added at 17 mins (2009-01-13 14:01:06 GMT)
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socs = ploughshares??

#
More results from scripturetext.com »
#
(WO/1985/002752) MACHINE FOR LIFTING TUBERS
At least one of the ploughshares (18) is configured as a pivoting extraction ... Au moins l'un des socs (18) a la forme d'un cylindre d'arrachage pivotant ...
www.wipo.org/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=1985002752 - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
by M DIETRICH - 1985 - All 5 versions

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Note added at 23 mins (2009-01-13 14:07:11 GMT)
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These ploughs are neat compact tools, and if their force of draught be not increased by the wheels, so as to require more power to keep in motion than some others, they must be equal to any ploughs now in use. In moist tenacious soils, by lengthening the mould board and bottom of the plough, it may be applied to the soil with a more acute angle, and would then clear itself the better. The mould board is very frequently of cast iron, otherwise of wood plated ; the bottom and land side of the plough is also plated with iron.
The ploughs upon Lord Moira's farm are not very distinct, or different from this, except that there are no wheels ; they are held by hand, and drawn by two horses abreast, guided by reins, in the Norfolk and Northumberland manner. I saw them ploughing bean ground a second time for wheat, in which they went on well. I remarked to the farm bailiff, that I thought the ploughing of a strong ley, would be too much for them ; but he says they can do it, and more horses than two are seldom or never used. I must remark, the horses are well corned, and well kept, besides being naturally stout, stiff, strong horses ; the ploughs too, are light neat tools, not over-loading the team ; and I suppose there is some advantage in drawing two abreast, they being nearer their work ; or from their similarity to the common wheel plough above described, I do not see why they should go easier, or be drawn with less force, unless it be supposed that wheels increase the friction, or impede the motion of the plough : it must however be confessed, that these wheeled ploughs are seldom drawn by less than 3 horses, and the 2 furrow ploughs have commonly 4 or 5.
The old fashioned throck plough is not quite given up ; I saw a few instances of it at work on strongish soils, drawn by four horses ; it is a clumsy heavy looking tool, and the horses seemed as much loaded with it on a similar soil, as Lord Moira's team of two horses only.

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Note added at 42 mins (2009-01-13 14:26:04 GMT)
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Dear Sheila

Do you have a picture of this tool on a French site?

TY

Also, is this a modern-day tool??

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Note added at 1 hr (2009-01-13 14:51:32 GMT)
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Sorry I cannot be of further help...I was going down the historical route :-)

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Note added at 1 hr (2009-01-13 14:54:49 GMT)
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sorry to be a pain, but how do you work out that "soc" = hoe....when

soc
n.m. soc (du gaul.)
Partie de la charrue qui s'enfonce dans la terre et y creuse des sillons.
Note from asker:
Hi Liz. No, I've just looked them up in Google pictures putting in the terms 'houe' and 'draw hoe'. I think they are talking abot a modern tool, yes. Thanks for your help!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Lionel_M (X) : Liz, I do not think that these ref talk about "garden tool"
14 mins
I don't know if this matters. I am trying to approach it logically. The idea is to help the asker :-)
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

acute-angled hoe

Sounds very like a draw-hoe = binette,
but why be more specific than the source?
Peer comment(s):
neutral Miranda Joubioux (X) : I think the problem is that the word 'binette' and 'houe' are found in the same document and Sheila needs to distinguish them correctly.
3 hrs
I see.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

43 mins
Reference:

The problem may simply come from the definition

See No 8 on
http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/hoe

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Note added at 52 mins (2009-01-13 14:35:53 GMT)
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In interesting article on hoe types (US)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12...

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Note added at 1 hr (2009-01-13 14:51:03 GMT)
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Monty Don on Hoes

There are dozens of different kinds, but all are fundamentally a blade on a stick, and hoeing is based upon the principle of cutting weeds off just below the surface of the soil. The design of a hoe depends upon whether you push the cutting edge through the soil or pull it back towards you. I think that for smaller annual weeds, it is best to push. A Dutch hoe is unbeatable for this.
If you are dealing with bigger weeds you need to chop them. Some kind of mattock or draw hoe is needed for this, with its blade at right abngles to the handle. Increasingly, I find a mattock useful for earthing up, and even turning, the soil as well as rough weeding.

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Note added at 1 hr (2009-01-13 14:59:25 GMT)
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More references
http://www.harrodhorticultural.com/HarrodSite/category/Garde...

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Note added at 6 hrs (2009-01-13 19:55:18 GMT)
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Liz has brought up the question of what the 'soc' refers to. I believe it to be a 'coulter', which is a term more often associated with the plough. However, it fits well with the idea of a draw hoe.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Michael GREEN : Good research, Miranda ! But I'm doubtful about "mattock" (too axe-like for the definition Sheila gives)/ I believe the fork is for the lunch break ;o)
31 mins
I know it's a long shot, since most of them have an accompanying fork!
neutral liz askew : I have to ask the, is "soc" a "hoe"??//This is what I thought. The asker seems to think it is a hoe?
32 mins
I'm afraid not, its part of a plough or in older days a manual plough http://www.pilgrimhall.org/tools.htm -
Something went wrong...
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