Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
latest two-twenties
English answer:
latest horses capable of running a mile in two minutes and twenty seconds
Added to glossary by
Andrew Vdovin
Nov 14, 2012 07:05
12 yrs ago
English term
latest two-twenties
English
Other
Sports / Fitness / Recreation
horse racing
One of the gentlemen I met at dinner had a passion for trotting horses. He asked me many questions about the famous race horses in America, from Lady Suffolk down to the latest two-twenties. I answered to the best of my abilities, but truth required me to say I was not authority in equine matters.
It is from a book written in the 19th century.
What is it supposed to mean? Some kind of horses?
It is from a book written in the 19th century.
What is it supposed to mean? Some kind of horses?
Responses
1 +5 | latest horses capable of running a mile in two minutes and twenty seconds | Colin Rowe |
1 | horses which cost $40 (to buy) | Catharine Cellier-Smart |
References
Trotting | David Moore (X) |
a two-twenty horse | Charles Davis |
Responses
+5
1 hr
Selected
latest horses capable of running a mile in two minutes and twenty seconds
This is just a guess, but seems plausible in the context of the sentence you provide in the Discussion box:
"I forget the exact figures he gave me, but believe they were something like two-thirty to the mile."
I do not know, but I would imagine that this could refer to the time the horse takes to cover a distance of one mile.
Given that a good time for a human runner is 4 minutes for a mile, I could imagine a time of 2 min. 20 s. being a respectable performance for a horse.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-11-14 10:23:03 GMT)
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I do not know what kind of equestrian event the horses in question were used to running, but I found the following interesting information on Wikipedia:
In 1973, Red Rum completed the 4-and-a-half mile circuit of the Grand National in the then record-breaking time of 9 minutes and 1.9 seconds, i.e. a time of just over 2 minutes per mile.
This finishing time broke the record held since 1934, setting a new record which stood for 16 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_National
How fast horses bread as racing horces ran in the 19th century, I do not know. And as I said, it all depends on what distance they were running and under what conditions (surface, jumps, ...). It is also interesting that the author refers to "trotting horses", rather than horses running at a full-out gallop.
In summary, 2 minutes and 20 seconds for a mile would at least appear to be in the right order of magnitude.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-11-14 10:25:33 GMT)
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On re-reading the note I just added, I cannot believe that I typed "bread" instead of "bred"!!! Sorry!
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Note added at 5 hrs (2012-11-14 12:16:11 GMT)
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Reference to "Lady Suffolk":
The term "Standardbred" was introduced in 1879 to distinguish those trotting horses who met a certain "standard" for the mile distance. The time was 2 1/2 minutes. Lady Suffolk's fame was built on being the first trotter to finish a mile under saddle in under 2:30. She swept under the wire in 2:26 in 1845, setting a world record at Beacon Course in Hoboken, New Jersey, becoming the first horse to trot a mile in under 2 1/2 minutes. She was 12 years old when she set her record.
http://www.oldgraymares.com/Information_Lady Suffolk.htm
See also the following Wikipedia article for a different reference to the same event, but with a different year specified:
The Old Gray Mare is an old folk song, more recently regarded as a children's song.[1] Although nominally about horses, it can also be interpreted as referring to women who are well past their prime.
Some authors[2][3][4] have said that the song originated based upon the extraordinary performance of the horse Lady Suffolk, the first horse recording as trotting a mile in less than two and a half minutes. It occurred on 4 July 1843 at the Beacon Course racetrack in Hoboken, New Jersey,[2] when she was more than ten years old.[2][3] One author[2] attributed the song to Stephen Foster, although the composer is listed usually as unknown. The book, The Gallant Gray Trotter,[5] featured Lady Suffolk.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Gray_Mare
"I forget the exact figures he gave me, but believe they were something like two-thirty to the mile."
I do not know, but I would imagine that this could refer to the time the horse takes to cover a distance of one mile.
Given that a good time for a human runner is 4 minutes for a mile, I could imagine a time of 2 min. 20 s. being a respectable performance for a horse.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2012-11-14 10:23:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I do not know what kind of equestrian event the horses in question were used to running, but I found the following interesting information on Wikipedia:
In 1973, Red Rum completed the 4-and-a-half mile circuit of the Grand National in the then record-breaking time of 9 minutes and 1.9 seconds, i.e. a time of just over 2 minutes per mile.
This finishing time broke the record held since 1934, setting a new record which stood for 16 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_National
How fast horses bread as racing horces ran in the 19th century, I do not know. And as I said, it all depends on what distance they were running and under what conditions (surface, jumps, ...). It is also interesting that the author refers to "trotting horses", rather than horses running at a full-out gallop.
In summary, 2 minutes and 20 seconds for a mile would at least appear to be in the right order of magnitude.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-11-14 10:25:33 GMT)
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On re-reading the note I just added, I cannot believe that I typed "bread" instead of "bred"!!! Sorry!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2012-11-14 12:16:11 GMT)
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Reference to "Lady Suffolk":
The term "Standardbred" was introduced in 1879 to distinguish those trotting horses who met a certain "standard" for the mile distance. The time was 2 1/2 minutes. Lady Suffolk's fame was built on being the first trotter to finish a mile under saddle in under 2:30. She swept under the wire in 2:26 in 1845, setting a world record at Beacon Course in Hoboken, New Jersey, becoming the first horse to trot a mile in under 2 1/2 minutes. She was 12 years old when she set her record.
http://www.oldgraymares.com/Information_Lady Suffolk.htm
See also the following Wikipedia article for a different reference to the same event, but with a different year specified:
The Old Gray Mare is an old folk song, more recently regarded as a children's song.[1] Although nominally about horses, it can also be interpreted as referring to women who are well past their prime.
Some authors[2][3][4] have said that the song originated based upon the extraordinary performance of the horse Lady Suffolk, the first horse recording as trotting a mile in less than two and a half minutes. It occurred on 4 July 1843 at the Beacon Course racetrack in Hoboken, New Jersey,[2] when she was more than ten years old.[2][3] One author[2] attributed the song to Stephen Foster, although the composer is listed usually as unknown. The book, The Gallant Gray Trotter,[5] featured Lady Suffolk.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Gray_Mare
Peer comment(s):
agree |
David Moore (X)
: See reference entry
2 hrs
|
Many thanks, David! I have now found a couple of interesting references to "Lady Suffolk" (see above).
|
|
agree |
Charles Davis
: Ditto!
3 hrs
|
Many thanks, Charles!
|
|
agree |
PoveyTrans (X)
: would be my reading also
4 hrs
|
Thanks!
|
|
agree |
British Diana
5 hrs
|
Thanks!
|
|
agree |
Phong Le
1 day 16 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks everybody!!!"
25 mins
horses which cost $40 (to buy)
Lady Suffolk was a great racehorse known as the "Queen of the Turf" in her time (1840s).
The implication in "from Lady Suffolk down to the latest two-twenties" is that "two-twenties" are the horses at the other end of the scale, i.e. not very good.
I initially thought that these might be horses on which bets were typically $40, but as that was a lot of money in those days, maybe it's horses that only cost $40 to buy.
http://suite101.com/article/who-was-the-old-gray-mare-a33264
http://www.oldgraymares.com/Information_Lady Suffolk.htm
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Note added at 28 mins (2012-11-14 07:33:50 GMT)
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I've no specific reference to confirm it, but I believe "two-twenties" is used to refer to two twenty-dollar bills, i.e. $40.
The implication in "from Lady Suffolk down to the latest two-twenties" is that "two-twenties" are the horses at the other end of the scale, i.e. not very good.
I initially thought that these might be horses on which bets were typically $40, but as that was a lot of money in those days, maybe it's horses that only cost $40 to buy.
http://suite101.com/article/who-was-the-old-gray-mare-a33264
http://www.oldgraymares.com/Information_Lady Suffolk.htm
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Note added at 28 mins (2012-11-14 07:33:50 GMT)
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I've no specific reference to confirm it, but I believe "two-twenties" is used to refer to two twenty-dollar bills, i.e. $40.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Sheila Wilson
: You could be right, but it's very common to say that for 220-something ie $220-229
32 mins
|
neutral |
Colin Rowe
: Just realized that I unwittingly quoted one of the same references as you... Sorry!
9 hrs
|
Reference comments
4 hrs
Reference:
Trotting
is a peculiarly American form of horse-racing, and I commend the following site to your attention:
http://www.trotting.com/what-is-trotting/
In the article, it clearly states that the standard of the day in question in this posting, the mid-1800s, was "2.30-2.31" for a mile. That being so, I'm wondering whether to agree with Colin, who is obviously on the right track (ouch...), or to post my own answer, as these horses are clearly a little faster and can cover the mile in LESS than 2.30 (2.29, etc.), rather than specifically in "2.20", but "in the 2.20s", i.e., "between 2.20 and 2.29".
http://www.trotting.com/what-is-trotting/
In the article, it clearly states that the standard of the day in question in this posting, the mid-1800s, was "2.30-2.31" for a mile. That being so, I'm wondering whether to agree with Colin, who is obviously on the right track (ouch...), or to post my own answer, as these horses are clearly a little faster and can cover the mile in LESS than 2.30 (2.29, etc.), rather than specifically in "2.20", but "in the 2.20s", i.e., "between 2.20 and 2.29".
5 hrs
Reference:
a two-twenty horse
I started writing this before David posted his reference, but was interrupted.
I have found this expression used with two different meanings:
1. A horse that can run a mile in 2 minutes 20 seconds
2. A horse that specialises in running sprint races of 220 yards (a furlong).
I have not posted the second as an alternative, because I think the first, Colin's suggestion, is more likely to be what the expression means in this text.
References:
1. This is an article from an American newspaper, the Lewiston Evening Journal, dated 3 June 1880. It is talking about yield of wheat has risen: it was once 20 bushels per acre and it is now 40. How is this possible?
"in the same way that we have gone from a six foot to an eight foot ox, from a three minute horse to a two twenty horse."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1913&dat=18800603&id=F...
Oxen have got bigger and horses have got faster. A horse used to run a distance in three minutes, now it runs that distance in two-twenty. The distance is obviously a mile. So the fastest horses around 1880 were two-twenties, capable of running a mile in 2 minutes 20 seconds.
2. The second meaning occurs here, in a later text: "Boy's Life" magazine from May 1932. A boy in the story has lost a short sprint race (100 yards). He has a slow start. Someone tells him:
"You're not a short sprint man at all; but a two-twenty horse. That trigger start--it wouldn't count against you in the longer dash"
http://books.google.es/books?id=jHibnoOKgZoC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA1...
The longer dash was the 220 yards (nowadays 200 metres).
This is clearly a metaphor, but it may reflect an established expression; horse sprint races were once popular. The usual expression here was a "quarter horse", meaning a horse specialising in the quarter-mile:
"Quarter Horse:
The Quarter Horse, the oldest American breed, was developed in Virginia in the 17th century. It evolved from an amalgam of British breeds to be the chunky, compact horse we know today. [...] Early settlers loved racing them over a quarter mile (hence the name) through scrub or the middle of the village. By 1656 Quarter Horse racing was established, preceding the Thoroughbred and its oval tracks featuring longer distance racing by several years. Once Thoroughbred racing became all the rage, Quarter Horse racing experienced a sharp decline and was quickly abandoned. [...] Quarter Horses are faster than Thoroughbreds, but run shorter distances. The classic distance of a Quarter Horse race is 440 yards (400 m), but races are run from anywhere between 100 and 870 yards (800 m)."
http://www.ushorse.biz/racing-race-horses.htm
Note, however, that it says short sprint races went out of fashion when thoroughbreds came in, and this had already happened by the mid-nineteenth century. So I think it's unlikely that "two-twenty horse" means a horse specialising in 220-yard races in this text.
So I'm pretty sure these "two-twenties" were 2' 20" milers, the fastest horses of that period. "Down to" doesn't mean "in descending order of merit"; it has the chronological sense of "down to the present day".
I have found this expression used with two different meanings:
1. A horse that can run a mile in 2 minutes 20 seconds
2. A horse that specialises in running sprint races of 220 yards (a furlong).
I have not posted the second as an alternative, because I think the first, Colin's suggestion, is more likely to be what the expression means in this text.
References:
1. This is an article from an American newspaper, the Lewiston Evening Journal, dated 3 June 1880. It is talking about yield of wheat has risen: it was once 20 bushels per acre and it is now 40. How is this possible?
"in the same way that we have gone from a six foot to an eight foot ox, from a three minute horse to a two twenty horse."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1913&dat=18800603&id=F...
Oxen have got bigger and horses have got faster. A horse used to run a distance in three minutes, now it runs that distance in two-twenty. The distance is obviously a mile. So the fastest horses around 1880 were two-twenties, capable of running a mile in 2 minutes 20 seconds.
2. The second meaning occurs here, in a later text: "Boy's Life" magazine from May 1932. A boy in the story has lost a short sprint race (100 yards). He has a slow start. Someone tells him:
"You're not a short sprint man at all; but a two-twenty horse. That trigger start--it wouldn't count against you in the longer dash"
http://books.google.es/books?id=jHibnoOKgZoC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA1...
The longer dash was the 220 yards (nowadays 200 metres).
This is clearly a metaphor, but it may reflect an established expression; horse sprint races were once popular. The usual expression here was a "quarter horse", meaning a horse specialising in the quarter-mile:
"Quarter Horse:
The Quarter Horse, the oldest American breed, was developed in Virginia in the 17th century. It evolved from an amalgam of British breeds to be the chunky, compact horse we know today. [...] Early settlers loved racing them over a quarter mile (hence the name) through scrub or the middle of the village. By 1656 Quarter Horse racing was established, preceding the Thoroughbred and its oval tracks featuring longer distance racing by several years. Once Thoroughbred racing became all the rage, Quarter Horse racing experienced a sharp decline and was quickly abandoned. [...] Quarter Horses are faster than Thoroughbreds, but run shorter distances. The classic distance of a Quarter Horse race is 440 yards (400 m), but races are run from anywhere between 100 and 870 yards (800 m)."
http://www.ushorse.biz/racing-race-horses.htm
Note, however, that it says short sprint races went out of fashion when thoroughbreds came in, and this had already happened by the mid-nineteenth century. So I think it's unlikely that "two-twenty horse" means a horse specialising in 220-yard races in this text.
So I'm pretty sure these "two-twenties" were 2' 20" milers, the fastest horses of that period. "Down to" doesn't mean "in descending order of merit"; it has the chronological sense of "down to the present day".
Discussion
Could this "two-thirty to the mile" be somehow connected to the "two-twenties", probably?