Nov 17, 2005 02:35
18 yrs ago
3 viewers *
English term

Looking for a term...

English Social Sciences Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
First this little article from Wikipedia and then my question.
===========================================
Propiska (Russian ÏÐÎÏÈÑÊÀ) - "The record of place of residence". It was designed to control internal population movement by binding a person to his or her permanent place of residence.
The noun derives from the Russian verb "propisat" ("to write into") — originally meaning to write a passport into a registration book of the given local office. The initial 1930s decree on propiska demanded to register documents, not the people. Later, "propiska" became an official term. Formally, none of the three Soviet Constitutions prohibited citizens from moving across the country. However, the internal militsiya decrees on propiska were practically regarded as the highest legislation. The propiska was to be recorded both in the internal passport of the citizens of the Soviet Union and at the local governmental office.

The propiska system was similar to the Tsarist internal passport system, which had been viewed as a tyrannical means of controlling population movements in the Russian Empire. The Bolsheviks abolished the internal passport system in 1917, but Joseph Stalin reinstated it in December 1932.

Under the Soviet regime, a valid propiska was required to apply for jobs, to get married, to receive medical treatment, and in many other situations. At the same time, it was almost impossible to get a local propiska in a major city without having a job, constituting a sort of catch 22.

Residency permits were extremely difficult for migrants to obtain in large cities, especially Moscow, and were a matter of prestige.

Certain "risk groups", such as dissidents, Roma and former Gulag inmates, were often barred from getting permits in Moscow and some other major cities.

However, many people used subterfuge to get Moscow residency permits, including fake marriages and bribery. Another way of obtaining Moscow residency was to become a limitchik, i.e., to enter Moscow to take certain understaffed job positions, e.g., at strategic plants or at construction works, according to a certain workforce quota ("limit").
==============================================
Now back to my question. The system is still there though it has changed. An individual must register when he comes to a new place of residence (like checking in when you come to a hotel). The opposite process is taking place when an individual wants to leave his permanent place of residence (like cheking out from a hotel.

QUESTION: What term can be used if you want to, so to say, "unregister"? This question has been discussed in the Russian-English pair but I'd like to ask this question here as well. It's not really important if you know or don't know the details about the historical aspect of the registration system. It's a matter of finding a proper word as this translation will be used for the court hearing.

Discussion

Ken Cox Nov 18, 2005:
(continuation) A coinage that may fit the situation in (say) Germany may not fit your situation. In the end, you have to use your best judgement.
Ken Cox Nov 18, 2005:
Hi Mark - I have no objection to coinages as such (a language that doesn't permit coinages is dead). My only concern is that if you use a coinage - and in this situation a coinage may be unavoidable - you should use one that properly reflects the meaning.
Mark Vaintroub (asker) Nov 18, 2005:
Rita and all other folks! It's not about changing addresses at all. At least not only about changing addresses. There is much more in it. Changing address is only the tip of the iceberg. There is no registration in the States or UK and etc. However, the fact that this concept or notion or idea (whatever you call it) does not exist in the USA or UK, does not mean that it does not exist at all or in some other parts of the world. As Vladimir has said it is completely "unEnglish". It does not make sense to try and find a term to something that does not exist in the English speaking world. What's the way out of this situation if there is no corresponding English word? No word comes even close in meaning. As far as I can understand, such word (coinage as Kenneth put it) has to be either created or borrowed from another language. Yes, I think "deregister" is a coinage only in a certain situation - for example, in a situation like mine. I think it is a better word than "propiska", which does not mean anything to an English speaking person. Yes, the word "deregister" is ambiguous if used isolated. Yes, the word "deregister" can be substituted by various word combinations (see K. Nielsen's example). But the most important thing in this situation is the fact that "deregister" has THE CLOSEST meaning to the Russian word.
RHELLER Nov 17, 2005:
when "checking out" does one leave one's new address? or a forwarding address?
Mark Vaintroub (asker) Nov 17, 2005:
Kenneth, they were (are) maintained everywhere. The passport offices are within the structure of the Ministry of the Interior. That's how the ministry keeps track of all people.
Ken Cox Nov 17, 2005:
For clarification: were (are) the records maintained only in the individual passports, or also (in parallel) in the offices of municipal or state officials?
Mark Vaintroub (asker) Nov 17, 2005:
Sorry for some typos...
Mark Vaintroub (asker) Nov 17, 2005:
The registration records used to be entered into an internal passport. Here is how it ised to be (most likely the preocedure has not changed): at the age of 16 all Russian citizen must get passports. When issueing a passport, the passport office made a registration note showing the address where a person lives. If you were moving, say from Moscow to Saint Petersburg, you had to come to the office, fill out some application forms and they would put a note that you have "deregistered". In other words you are no longer registered at this place and have the right to register somewhere else. It was not unnuled because the initial record was absolutely legitimate. Even if you were chaging residence within the limites of the same city, the procedure was the same. You could not be registered at several places at the same time.

The word "deregister" is very good. If there is a process of registration, there must be a word describing the reverse process. Coorect me if I am wrong. I was thinking about this word. My concern is if the meaning of this word will be understood in the context of the whole idea of registration.

Responses

+13
15 mins
Selected

Deregister

Provided the context makes it clear that the reference is to the place of residence, "deregister" is fairly commonly used.

[DOC] 530
Formato de archivo: Microsoft Word 2000 - Versión en HTML
(obligation to register and deregister permanent residence. and to register change
of address of residence). Individual persons must register their ...
www.mnz.si/en/upl/zak_min/uunz/ZPPrebAngl.doc - Páginas similares

[PDF] Are you a returnee or thinking of returning?
Formato de archivo: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Versión en HTML
Do you have to personally deregister residence from your place of displacement.
and register in your place of return? You do not need to deregister ...
www.unhcr.ba/protection/laic/LEAFLE~1.pdf - Páginas similares

IND Verblijfwijzer Procedure - [ Traduzca esta página ]
You must deregister with the municipality and hand in your residence permit.
In some cases you will be eligible for a remigration arrangement. ...
www.ind.nl/EN/verblijfwijzer/verblijfwijzer_ mijnsituatie.asp?proc=komen&lang=en&duur=1&proced... - 10k - 14 Nov 2005 - En caché - Páginas similares

Residence Registration - Munich - [ Traduzca esta página ]
When leaving you have to deregister again. In German: Abmeldung ... you just go
to the residence bureau (Einwohnermeldeamt) and say you need to pick up a ...
www.toytownmunich.com/wiki/Residence_Registration - 12k - En caché - Páginas similares

muenchen.de - Administration Forms - [ Traduzca esta página ]
Forms for residence permit and change of residency in Munich. ... If you wish to
move away from Munich, the law requires you to deregister with the local ...
www.muenchen.de/Stadtleben/Essential_Information/ 37064/03aadministrationforms.html - 63k - 15 Nov 2005 -

...although if used in isolation its meaning would be ambiguous.

Andy
Peer comment(s):

agree Tsogt Gombosuren
24 mins
Thanks Tsogt
agree Tania Marques-Cardoso
5 hrs
Gracias Tania
agree Jack Doughty
5 hrs
H Jack, Thanks. Russia, of course, is "right up your street". :-)
agree Armorel Young
5 hrs
Thanks Amorel
agree Rachel Fell
6 hrs
Thanks Rachel
agree Ian M-H (X)
8 hrs
Thanks Ian
agree Brie Vernier
9 hrs
Thanks Brie
neutral RHELLER : not one English reference? Hi Andy, I think we need to be more creative than just taking words from non-natives - these are the true challenges of translation - translating the cultural notions that are behind the words
12 hrs
Hi Rita. Of course not. Do you have to register your place of residence in the US, UK, etc..? //1. You assume the translations were done by "non-natives" - Evidence? ".2. It's not notifying the new address, but cancelling registration of the previous one.
agree Romanian Translator (X)
14 hrs
Gracias Awana
agree Vladimir Dubisskiy : there is no need for Enlgish refernce as the concept is totally "unEnglish'. But that's what it is. Clear and concise.Myslef I have used this word when explaining this issue to many English native speakers and have never had a problem with understanding.
14 hrs
Thankfully "unEnglish", as you put it, Vladimir. A practical demonstration
agree Nick Lingris : Deregister is in the OED (examples 1924-1971) and thousands of UK sites (as both deregister and de-register). E.g. http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=10...
15 hrs
What's a hyphen between friends? :-) Thanks Nick
agree juvera : The references have to be non-native, because there is no such regstration in the UK. You get 'registered' on the 'electoral register' if you are entitled to vote. That's the nearest you get to be officially recognised to be living at a certain address.
20 hrs
Nick has found UK sites. I must admit I couldn't. The "concept", however, is unEnglish, as you and Vladimir point out.
agree Rajan Chopra
1 day 5 hrs
Thanks langclinic
agree TranslateThis : Totally agree. To Rita: *deregister* can be found in many dictionaries, one of them being Reader's Digest Oxford Complete Wordfinder
10 days
Thanks TT.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "This is the term that I am going to use. Having discussed it with the attorney, we both came to the conclusion that this term would be the best one to use with a footnote describing the meaning of this term."
-2
13 mins

Declare null and void/annul

I have read all this and had a think about it, then checked the enyclopedia and this seems to fit a legal context.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Armorel Young : to comment on your suggestion of null and void, that means that it was never valid in the first place - that's completely different from having a valid registration but simply cancelling it because you move away
5 hrs
annul means to cancel. Why don't you read all the answer?
disagree Ian M-H (X) : To annul also means to make or declare void or invalid, i.e. to nullify - so Armorel's objection holds for both your suggested answers
8 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
5 hrs

comment

One reason for the difficulty of finding a translation is that formal registration of one's place of residence is not normally required in any English-speaking countries (and certainly not in historical practice), so the related terms don't exist in normal language. It's interesting to note that all the references cited for 'deregister' are translations, and IMO 'deregsiter' is a coinage, although possibly a legitimate one.

For the action on the part of the person who is moving (or wishes to move), a formulation such as 'give notice of a change of residence' or 'request a change in the registered place of residence' could also be used. The first implies that the person can simply change residence on his or her on initiative, which was probably not the case in Soviet Russia; the second implies that official approval is required for a change of residence.

For the action on the part of the person(s) who maintain the register(s), a formulation such as 'delete the registration' could be used, although that implies that the information is removed from the registry (probably not the case). A more elaborate formulation would be 'revise the registration to note that the person is no longer resident' or 'mark the registration as "no longer resident" (which probably reflects the actual practice).



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs 11 mins (2005-11-17 13:47:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In response to the asker's further explanation:
For the entry in the passport, I'd suggest 'revise the (registered) place of residence', but not 'deregister', because the result of deregistration is that you are no longer registered, and presumably nobody was/is allowed to have no registered place of residence. You could also say that the previously entry is voided and a new entry is made.
As for the records maintained by the passport offices, if the registration entry by one office is annulled (deregistered) and a new registration is made in a different office by an unrelated official, with some finite amount of elapsed time between the two acts (similar to the system used in Germany and the Netherlands, for instance), you could say 'deregister' (and correspondly 're-register'). If the offices effectively have a single shared (common) registry, you could also use 'deregister' for the act of nullifying the previous registration, but you could equally well say 'revise the registered place of residence' for the entire process of deregistration and re-registration.
In short: I'm not sure that 'deregister' is the ideal solution for your case. Deregistration implies that the registration effectively no longer exists (although the record may still exist). If the registration still exists and the only change is that the place of residence has changed (I hope you follow my logic), and the change is made in a single act, 'revise' would be more appropriate IMO.
Peer comment(s):

agree Andy Watkinson : Quite right, Kenneth - fortunately, this requirement is not common practice in English-speaking countries, which explains the "foreign" references. It's obviously preferable to avoid "coining" words if possible - but the need to be concise prevails....
5 hrs
agree RHELLER : well said :-)
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

official register one's new address

in the U.S. when we move, we want the post office to forward our mail. We fill out a form with our new address, called a "change of address" form.

HTH

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs 18 mins (2005-11-17 05:54:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

sorry, OFFICIALLY register

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs 34 mins (2005-11-17 16:10:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To Andy (no more room for peer comments): Please don't take the neutral personally. I consider the evolution of the English language a serious issue; I don't think native speakers should allow non-natives to create English words willy-nilly.
Only one of the references was available - the Munich one - which is written in childish English.
In the U.S. the act of "changing one's residence" automatically cancels out the old one, since the post office will not allow 2 addresses. In the interest of efficiency, we simply do not refer to the intermediary act of cancelling out the first one, but it is assumed.
Something went wrong...
+1
2 hrs

cancel one's registration

...and then re-register at the new place. This is the most succinct way I can think of to say it; I think we tend to say it a bit more wordily, eg, "to notify the xxx office/authorities of a change in residence."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 5 hrs 12 mins (2005-11-18 07:47:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think that basically what you will have to decide is if you want to make this a one-word term, at all costs, since (as people have pointed out), a word describing this process doesn't exist in English since the practise doesn't exist in English-speaking countries. If translating the idea into a single word is important above all else, then you could use something like "deregister" and the meaning will probably be conveyed effectively enough. However, it doesn't sound like "real" English, to my ears; it strikes me as a bit of a foreign-sounding stop-gap type of word, if that makes sense. I think if you want to convey the idea in English that sounds natural to native speakers, you will have to be a little more wordy--use a phrase that describes the process as succinctly as possible.
Peer comment(s):

agree Joshua Wolfe : I agree it is a choice between using one word, deregister, or you wish t emphasize the foreign aspect, I suggest using K.Nielsen's formulation initially, and then deregister subsequently.
2 days 16 hrs
Thanks, Urbanist.
Something went wrong...
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search