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Glossary entry

Polish term or phrase:

wielki szatny zakonu krzyżackiego

English translation:

Grand Quartermaster (Ordenstrappier, Summus Trapearius) of the Teutonic Order

Added to glossary by Michael Sarni
Dec 17, 2021 12:38
2 yrs ago
20 viewers *
Polish term

Wielki Szatny Zakonu Krzyżackiego

Polish to English Other History
Wielki szatny Zakonu Krzyżackiego
Proposed translations (English)
3 Grand Quartermaster (Ordenstrappier, Summus Trapearius) of the Teutonic Order
3 Quatermaster (Obersttrappier) in the Order of the Teutonic Knights
3 The Draper of the Teutonic Order
3 the Supreme Draper (of the Teutonic Order)
Change log

Dec 26, 2021 16:47: Michael Sarni Created KOG entry

Discussion

Andrzej Ziomek Dec 23, 2021:
My last entry:

It wasn't me to start this 'ping pong', at all costs trying to prove the ALLEGED fault of a competitor, rather than proving the ALLEGED correctness of their own solution.
Michael Sarni Dec 22, 2021:
More English dictionaries - draper @Andrzej Ziomek American Heritage, 4th Ed.
Chiefly British
A dealer in cloth or clothing and dry goods.
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Chambers, 13th Ed.
A dealer in cloth, textiles and clothing
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Collins COBUILD, 5th Ed.
A draper is a shopkeeper who sells cloth. (BRIT)
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RandomHouse
brit.
1) a dealer in cloth; retail merchant or clerk who sells piece goods
2) a retail merchant or clerk who sells clothing and dry goods
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Longman 6th Ed.
someone who sells cloth, curtains etc
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Merriam-Webster
chiefly British
a dealer in cloth and sometimes also in clothing and dry goods
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Webster's Unabridged, 3rd Ed.
1. Britain : a dealer in cloth and sometimes also in clothing and dry goods
2. : one that drapes (as cloth) or arranges draperies (as on a stage setting).

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If the word is nowhere to be found in English dictionaries, the word does not convey a meaning to an English-speaking reader, and a special explanation is required.
All the websites you've quoted so far are run by amateurs who don't necessarily care for historic authenticity and scholarly correctness. I suppose they are taking their cue from that single wikipedia article.
There's little point continuing the present ping-pong.
Andrzej Ziomek Dec 22, 2021:
https://www.medievalwarfare.info/templars.htm

'...Like any other great noble the Grand Master had a number of officers such as a Senechal and Marshal, and unlike other great nobles also had a senior officer called a "Draper" because the standardisation of Templar outfits - effectively uniforms - were of such importance....'

'Draper
The Draper was in charge of the Templar garments and linens. The Templar Rule states that after the Master and Marshal, the Draper was superior to all brethren.The Templar Rule said of the Draper’s responsibilities regarding the robe of the order, “and the Draper or the one who is in his place should studiously reflect and take care to have the reward of God in all the above-mentioned things, so that the eyes of the envious and evil-tongued cannot observe that the robes are too long or too short; but he should distribute them so that they fit those who must wear them, according to the size of each one". The Draper had in his personal retinue two squires, a number of tailors and one brother in charge of the pack animals who would carry supplies. The Draper, like the Marshal, had four horses at his disposal.'

Likewise in the Teutonic Order, presumably.
Michael Sarni Dec 21, 2021:
Oxford English Dictionary online draper, n.
Forms:  Also Middle English drapere, Middle English drapure, drapar.
Frequency (in current use): 
Show frequency band information
Etymology: < Anglo-Norman draper = French drapier (13th cent. in Hatzfeld & Darmesteter)
 1. Originally: a person who made (woollen) cloth. Subsequently: a dealer in cloth, and now by extension, in other articles of textile manufacture: often qualified as woollen draper, linen draper.
1362   W. Langland Piers Plowman A. v. 123   Þenne I drouȝ me a-mong þis drapers my Donet to leorne.
1377   W. Langland Piers Plowman B. v. 255   Bothe mercere & drapere.
c1420   Sir Amadas (Weber) 144   Ther myght..no draper is clothe drawe.
1483   Cath. Angl. 106/2   A Draper, pannarius, trapezata.
1513   Will of Robert Fabyan in R. Fabyan New Chrons. Eng. & France (1811) Pref. p. iii   I Robert Fabyan, citizein and draper of London.
1572   in W. H. Turner Select. Rec. Oxf. (1880) 342   The mercers and wollen drapers shalbe incorporated to one incorporation.
1655   T. Fuller Church-hist. Brit. vi. 275   Thus the Draper may sooner sell forty ells of freeze and course cloath, than the Mercer four yards of cloath of gold.
 2. In combination = -seller.
Michael Sarni Dec 20, 2021:
Re. realmofhistory.com From https://www.realmofhistory.com/about-us/:

Starting out in late 2015, Realm of History was founded by me – Dattatreya Mandal, ex-editor and writer for various online architectural and technology digests. With my degree in Architecture (Bachelor of Architecture), my fascination however always gravitated towards the subject of History of Architecture. Over time, the strong interest evolved into a genuine appreciation for the subject of History as a whole.

Enough said about the qualifications of the author as a historian.
Michael Sarni Dec 19, 2021:
Oxford English Dictionary online draper, n.
Forms:  Also Middle English drapere, Middle English drapure, drapar.
Frequency (in current use): 
Show frequency band information
Etymology: < Anglo-Norman draper = French drapier (13th cent. in Hatzfeld & Darmesteter)
1. Originally: a person who made (woollen) cloth. Subsequently: a dealer in cloth, and now by extension, in other articles of textile manufacture: often qualified as woollen draper, linen draper.
1362   W. Langland Piers Plowman A. v. 123   Þenne I drouȝ me a-mong þis drapers my Donet to leorne.
1377   W. Langland Piers Plowman B. v. 255   Bothe mercere & drapere.
c1420   Sir Amadas (Weber) 144   Ther myght..no draper is clothe drawe.
1483   Cath. Angl. 106/2   A Draper, pannarius, trapezata.
1513   Will of Robert Fabyan in R. Fabyan New Chrons. Eng. & France (1811) Pref. p. iii   I Robert Fabyan, citizein and draper of London.
1572   in W. H. Turner Select. Rec. Oxf. (1880) 342   The mercers and wollen drapers shalbe incorporated to one incorporation.

 2. In combination = -seller.

+ + +

So, draper is a person making, selling, handling (woolen) cloth. This is OED, not Wikipedia.
Andrzej Ziomek Dec 19, 2021:
'Draper' is archaic in this sense but even more so is 'szatny' (never used in present-day Polish).
Michael Sarni Dec 18, 2021:
That was a single quote in a my google search. Yet Grand Quartermaster is quite established in English usage as the name of the corresponding office.

Britannica:
https://dokumen.pub/encyclopaedia-britannica-23-14nbsped.htm...

Marquis Sacchetti is always Grand Quartermaster, or superintendent of the technical services of the Vatican…

An article on geraldic matters:
https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalmaga6190unse/genealog...

Grand Quartermaster: A mace and battle-axe in saltire.

Even in the gaming world:
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?733462-(SSHIP...

This isn't entirely about Glykeria "the Affectionate" a Byzantine princess who would later become Grand Quartermaster of Pisa and one of the most powerful figures in the Empire.

I suppose the goal here to make the title understood by an English reader, not a German one.
Andrzej Ziomek Dec 18, 2021:
the Supreme Draper (of the Teutonic Order) https://www.realmofhistory.com/2017/04/25/10-interesting-fac...

'... To that end, the upper-most administrative strata comprised the Hochmeister (literally ‘high master’) who were the Grand Masters of the Teutonic Knights, accompanied by representatives of the Ballei
(administrative provinces) and five other senior officers whose titles ranged from Treasurer, Supreme Marshall to even Supreme Draper....'

'draper' as cognate to the German 'Trappier'

Proposed translations

1 hr
Selected

Grand Quartermaster (Ordenstrappier, Summus Trapearius) of the Teutonic Order

Grand Quartermaster is an established English form of the office on the order level in modern military orders (cf. https://movfw.org/di/vfw/v2/default.asp?pid=79381).


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Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2021-12-19 17:04:06 GMT)
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Gamers use it (top structure lifted from the Teutonic order):

Grozgebieterei
Below the Hōchmeister and Grōzkomtur is a council called the Grōzgebieterei. This council is made up of five primary individuals and several secondary members. The primary members are as follows:
Grōzmarschal (Grand Marshal) - In charge of controlling the army.
Grōztrapier (Grand Quartermaster) - In charge of supplying the army...

(https://www.worldanvil.com/w/mortalis3A-mortal-age-sigiswulf...


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Note added at 8 days (2021-12-25 17:59:46 GMT)
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http://www.dcgckt.org/21GO1.pdf
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
28 mins

Quatermaster (Obersttrappier) in the Order of the Teutonic Knights

.

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Note added at 37 mins (2021-12-17 13:16:13 GMT)
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Kapituła wybierała także najważniejszych dygnitarzy, stanowiących tak zwaną Radę Wielkiego Mistrza. To ciało doradcze wraz z wielkim mistrzem rządziło Państwem Zakonnym w okresach między kapitułami. Należeli do niej Wielki Marszałek (Królewiec), Wielki Szpitalnik (Elbląg), Wielki Szatny (Dzierzgoń), Wielki Skarbnik (Malbork) i Wielki Komtur (Malbork). Do tej piątki Rada dobierała sobie jednego z komturów. - https://zamek.malbork.pl/historia/historia-zakonu-5

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The construction of the Teutonic Castle in Dzierzgoń began in 1248, as ordered by the national champion Heinrich von Wida. At its location there was chosen towering hill over the area, where previously was a fortified city of Prussia, to protect the settlement lying at its feet. The fort was the seat of the Commander of Dzierzgoń, who also held the function of the Quatermaster (Obersttrappier) in the Order of the Teutonic Knights. - https://www.spottinghistory.com/view/2118/dzierzgon-castle-r...

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Ausgehend von dem Ordensrat, der dem Hochmeister des Deutschen Ordens zuarbeitete und sich aus den fünf obersten Ordensgebietigern, nämlich dem Großkomtur, dem Ordensmarschall, dem Oberstspittler (Hospitalmeister), dem Obersttrappier (Quartier- und Versorgungsmeister) und dem Treßler (Schatzmeister) zusammensetzte wurde im Herzogtum Preußen die sogenannte Oberratsstube geschaffen. - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberrat_(Herzogtum_Preußen)#
Peer comment(s):
neutral Michael Sarni : There were several Obersttrapiers in the order, but only one Ordenstrappier.
2 days 4 hrs
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1 hr

The Draper of the Teutonic Order



Großgebietiger

The Großgebietiger were high officers with competence on the whole order, appointed by the Hochmeister. There were five offices.

The Großkomtur (Magnus Commendator), the deputy of the Grandmaster
The Treßler, the treasurer
The Spitler (Summus Hospitalarius), responsible for all hospital affairs
The Trapier, responsible for dressing and armament
The Marschall (Summus Marescalcus), the chief of military affairs

- http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com/id245.html

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order#Großgebietiger

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The officials governing the Teutonic Order at the various levels were commander (Komtur, preceptor) at the local level, province commander (Landkomtur), national commander (Landmeister), and grand master (Hochmeister, magister). The highest leadership positions (including grand master, grand commander [Grosskomtur], marshal [Ordensmarschall], draper or quartermaster [Trapier], hospitaller [Spittler], and treasurer [Tressler]) were elected by the general chapter.

- https://www.crystalinks.com/teutonicknights.html

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The grand masters were supported financially by some of the Prussian commanderies and advocacies (Ger. Vogteien), while the high dignitaries were based in other commanderies: the marshal in Konigsberg (mod. Kaliningrad, Russia), the hospitaller in Elbing (mod. Elbląg, Poland), and the draper in Christburg (mod. Dzierzgôn, Poland), while the grand commander and treasurer remained in Marienburg. - https://erenow.net/postclassical/crusades/886.php

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The other senior officials of the German Order were the Grosskomtur (grand commander), the Oberster Marschall (supreme marshal), the Oberster Spittler (supreme hospitaller), the Oberster Trappier (supreme draper) and the Tressler (treasurer). Even before the fall of Acre, the Hochmeister and Chapter in the Holy Land also usually appointed the Deutschmeister, who was in command of the Order's Balleien in Germany, as well as the Landmeisters (governors of large Teutonic Knights' provinces) of Prussia and Livonia.

- http://prussia.online/Data/Book/te/teutonic-knight-1190-1561... - pages 14 - 15
Peer comment(s):
neutral Michael Sarni : Are there more examples of the this particular usage? Wikipedia has certain reputation in academic circles, you know.
2 days 3 hrs
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2 days 7 hrs

the Supreme Draper (of the Teutonic Order)

Picking up the gauntlet (perhaps the one issued by the Supreme Draper?...)

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Note added at 2 days 8 hrs (2021-12-19 21:12:34 GMT)
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https://books.google.pl/books?id=hmkNEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2...

'...whose titles ranged from treasurer and supreme marshal to supreme draper....'

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Note added at 2 days 8 hrs (2021-12-19 21:35:31 GMT)
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https://books.google.pl/books?id=_HxTEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT52&lpg=PT...

'...the supreme hospitaller (Oberster Spittler), the supreme draper (Oberster ...'
Peer comment(s):
neutral Michael Sarni : First book is a non-scholarly work on the 20 C German history. A single instance. Second book - a collective monograph by mostly German scholars. A single instance in a chapter by Prof. Klaus Militzer, Univ. of Bohum. English mother tongue?
4 hrs
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