French term
le plus grand rendez-vous populaire
... the Prix d'Amérique is the most bet-upon race in France with an all-time record of 39 million euros wagered
Any comments on my understanding of 'le plus grand rendez-vous populaire' here and my proposed translation?
For info:
- 'le plus grand' can not refer to number of spectators as whilst the Prix d'Amérique attracts 40 000, the Arc de Triomphe attracts 42 000
- although €62 million were, wagered on the Arc de Triomphe this includes some €45 million wagered abroad, leaving only €17 million in France - this is what I have based my conclusion/translation on given that the €39 million mentioned in the text were bet just in France
(prize money for the Prix d'Amérique is greater than that for the Arc de Triomphe but this would seem irrelevant due to the notion of 'populaire' in the source text).
Sep 10, 2017 11:57: writeaway changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"
Sep 10, 2017 15:50: writeaway changed "Field" from "Other" to "Marketing"
Sep 10, 2017 18:46: Michele Fauble changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"
PRO (4): Charles Davis, Victoria Britten, Yvonne Gallagher, Michele Fauble
Non-PRO (3): Mair A-W (PhD), Nikki Scott-Despaigne, writeaway
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Proposed translations
the biggest popular horse-racing event
Yes, there are several nuances of meaning possible to the French "populaire", but the same exist in the English term too. See my discussion posts. Note in particular the meaning used more commonly in French for "populaire", that is, that it is one that particularly attracts members of the public from the lower socio-economic end of the spectrum. A slight trade-off in the translation, as, although this meaning does exist in the English meaings of "popular", it is not used so often in this way in English.
Most importantly, the original does say "biggest" and "popular", thus two ideas that both have meaning and that both need to be represented, in my view.
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Note added at 1 hr (2017-09-10 11:56:06 GMT)
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I do like Phil's suggestion of "ordinary" for the meaning of "populaire". Difficult to render in English and the term "popular" does have that meaning too, altyhough is much less used in English in that way. That's where I think there is a necessary compromise in this one.
Thank you. The facts are apparently : Prix d'Amérique 40 000 racegoers v Arc de T 42 000 therefore is PdA is not the biggest (and therefore most popular) in terms of racegoers €39 million bet in France on Prix d'Amérique v € 17 million bet in France on Arc de Triomphe (actual total of €62 million including €45 million wagered abroad) |
agree |
Charles Davis
: I very much agree with your comments here and in the discussion area on "populaire" (and "plus grand"). To assume that it must refer only to value (or number) of bets is unwarranted: in a word, over-translation.
7 mins
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neutral |
philgoddard
: Popular is ambiguous. This could imply that other events are unpopular.
1 hr
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"Populaire" is is little ambiguous in the French too, altho' I thing your idea of "ordinary people" is the meaning here. Usual in French, exists in EN too, altho' less commonly used. Cf. disc Posts. Does not in any way imply others are unpopular.
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disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: it's clear it's neither the biggest nor the most popular horse race for wagers within France (and BTW people bet on races, not on events!)
1 hr
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the most bet-upon race for French punters
I think the idea of "populaire"is "among ordinary French people".
"Biggest" and "most popular" don't work in my opinion. They're ambiguous - I think most people would take them to mean numbers of numbers of live and/or TV spectators.
The Arc de Triomphe is arguably both the biggest and most popular event and, as Carol says, attracts far higher levels of international betting.
Since the sentence ends by stating that the Prix d'Amérique attracts record stakes, I think it should begin with something specific like "most bet-upon".
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Note added at 2 hrs (2017-09-10 12:48:25 GMT)
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In answer to your additional question, no. You can't say "stakers", and it's not the number of bets as far as I know, it's the amount.
Thank you for your input Phil. In your opinion (or anyone else's), would something like 'that attracts the greatest number of stakers in France' work? |
neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: I like your choice of "ordinary" for meaning of "populaire". I don't like your choice of "punters", a little derogatory. "Most bet-upon" is an inaccurate reading of the original in my view.
27 mins
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Punters isn't derogatory, it's just a colloquial term for gamblers.
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neutral |
Charles Davis
: If you go this way, I suppose you ought to say "the race most bet upon by French punters". / Btw, on the website your answer is a translation of "la course la plus jouée par les parieurs chaque année en France", not of this phrase.
34 mins
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I know, but as I said, a more literal translation wouldn't work.
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is the most popular horse race in terms of attracting bets (with)in France
or
The Grand Prix d’Amérique is the (horse) race which attracts the most bets from people in France
or
More bets are placed in France on the Grand Prix d’Amérique than on any other (horse) race. [you probably don't need to say "horse" as it's probably already clear in your context]
I think it needs a looser, more explanatory translation rather than word-for-word.
it's clear this is not the biggest race, either in terms of racegoers or of bets wagered.
Like Polygot, I am also reminded of the Grand National where people from all walks of life, who do not normally do so, place bets. I wouldn't call these people "punters" or gamblers necessarily as for many of them this is the only, or one of a few, races they bet on. This may be the only time they place a bet each year so punters or gamblers doesn't really fit imho. (And I speak for my own family here: we bet on the Cheltenham Gold Cup, Aintree Grand National and the Irish National=3 races a year).
I considered using "ordinary" people as suggested by Phil but this would imply that others don't gamble on this race. Obviously, with that amount of bets, you are going to haveregular punters, high rollers and then Mr or Ms J Soap having their one flutter of the year...
Finally, it's a horse race not an "event".
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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-09-10 13:34:56 GMT)
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I probably should have said
"the largest amount in bets in France"... as it's not clear whether it's about amount of bets or amount of money.
You may have it elsewhere in your context what the amount refers to.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-09-10 14:04:00 GMT)
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Hi Carol, yes, but the TC commentator isn't taking your the research you've done into account. It's clear from that the that most poplualr in attendance and in bets is Arc de Triomphe (attracts 42,000 spectators and €62 million in bets) so it's clear that this race is NOT the most popular or biggest. Just the most popular in terms of people in France taking a punt, or amount of bets placed in France. I think you need to be accurate when you actually have the figures.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-09-10 14:06:06 GMT)
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oops, sorry 1st line of last note. "taking your the research you've done into account. It's clear from that the that
should read
taking the research you've done into account. It's clear from that that the...
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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-09-10 14:18:46 GMT)
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I also think "a meeting" or "event" gives the wrong idea. It's one race. You may also point to the fact that this is a harness race (with sulkie or "trotting" as it's known in Europe) whereas the Arc de Triomphe is horse racing with mounted jockey so really comparing chalk and cheese as not the same kind of racing at all...
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Note added at 4 hrs (2017-09-10 14:23:02 GMT)
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Facts from its own website
http://www.prix-amerique.com/?lang=en
The Prix d'Amérique Opodo is the planet’s biggest trotting race
The Prix d’Amérique Opodo not only boasts the highest prize money in France but is also the world’s richest race in this discipline.
40 millions
The amount of bets placed, in euros, on just the Grand Prix d’Amérique race. This makes it the most bet-upon race of the year for French punters.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2017-09-10 14:30:57 GMT)
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Yes, I do think 'the race that attracts most bets in France" would work. I mean €39 million is a lot! French racegoers obviously prefer to bet on harness racing.
The Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe is far more wel-known and that's why it attracts bets worldwide. And a lot of people travel to France to watch the AdT race as well whereas I doubt there would be as many foreign spectators at the Prix d'Amérique harness race.
Thank you for your detailed answer. This is how I understood the SL, however, one person who has commented on TranslatorsCafé advises that a translation such as you have suggested (one I was inclinded to opt for I might add) is moving too far from what is in the original text. Therefore I may opt for "the most popular horse-racing meeting in France" (le plus grand rendez-vous populaire...), leaving the sense of 'most popular' to the readerr's interpretation. |
Now that some people have confirmed my interpretation the dilema I have is this: how far can I move from the source language text (which could have been more specific, refering to number of bets etc.) but it is not, it is quite general?. The point is that whilst the AdT attracts €62 million in bets, if €45 million of that amount is wagered abroad, only €17 million is placed in bets in France against the €39 million placed on the Prix d'Amérique in France. Would, in your opinion, ' the race that attracts most bets in France work? Really appreciate everyone's contribution and assistance. |
the largest bet-attracting (race) meeting
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neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: Asker already used "meeting" but imo that's used for the whole day(s). We talk of the Aintree National meeting/festival but The Grand National "race" http://www.aintree-grand-national.net/grand-national-meeting...
4 hrs
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Ah! The voice of someone living in horse breeding country! Yes, you do have a valid point
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the largest event
Reference comments
http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/populaire/62612
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_National
"An event that is prominent in British culture, the race is popular amongst many people who do not normally watch or bet on horse racing at other times of the year"
They are clearly talking about the fact that the Prix de l'Arc de Trimphe attracts the punters in all senses of the word !
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Note added at 1 hr (2017-09-10 12:09:07 GMT)
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I should have written "Grand Prix d’Amérique" but the principle remains the same
agree |
writeaway
52 mins
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agree |
mchd
1 hr
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agree |
Victoria Britten
2 hrs
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agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
2 hrs
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agree |
Charles Davis
: Absolutely. The Grand National is a very apt reference. I never actually bet on it but I used to watch it avidly in my youth. Popularity is not just a matter of actually betting. (Do they have office sweepstakes in France, btw?)
6 hrs
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agree |
Michele Fauble
7 hrs
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Discussion
Discussion entries: 18
Reference entries: 1
Contributions or thanks from CarolMasip: 0
Whether the greatest French race is the Arc or the Prix d'Amérique is a matter of opinion. I would say it's the Arc; at least it's certainly the most famous internationally. Within France, I don't know what people would say. The fact that although more money is bet on the Arc, much more money is bet on the Prix within France (€39M versus €17M on the Arc, Carol tells us) suggests that the perspective might be different there. But in any case the writer is not claiming the Prix is the greatest race, just the greatest popular race, which is a different matter.
I want to use "great" rather than "big" precisely because I think it is expressing an opinion, about importance rather than just size.
I don't think it's obvious at all that we should change the ST if we don't agree with it. But to my mind the opinion expressed here is perfectly reasonable.
Comparing harness and thoroughbred racing is like comparing chalk and cheese as I said earlier. It is far cheaper to breed, buy and train a "cheval trotteur" than to breed, buy and train a thoroughbred. Also, the local farmer might own a trotting horse but be very unlikely to own a thoroughbred. Thus the hoi polloi in France may feel closer or more involved with harness racing and hence more interested in placing bets on their neighbour's horse. In the UK and Ireland, however, harness racing is not very popular at all as it is associated with Irish Travellers racing sulkies along public roads, often with serious animal-welfare issues. (Currently there is a move afoot for Ireland to get more involved in harness racing with France agreeing to allow horses bred in Ireland participate in French races and even offering funds to get this scheme up and running. So I've been hearing more about harness racing) Anyway, my 2 cents. If you want to use "biggest" you will have to say (IMHO) "harness race". There is no doubt that the Arc is the flagship race for thoroughbreds and the Prix d'Amérique flagship harness race (in France)
I don't understand why you omitted to highlight this bit in your last note?
it's the 'greatest' meeting, not in terms of spectators attending, but in terms of money wagered within France on the Pari-Mutuel, i.e, domestically. For those who don't know what this type of betting is (similar to Tote betting here): https://www.gamblingsites.com/sports-betting/types/pari-mutu... But I don't like "greatest" anyway because that is an opinion and I think most horseracing fans would say the "greatest" French race is the Arc (and possibly the most prestigious race in Europe) and which, as previously pointed out, has the largest attendance, purse (prize money) and total amount in bets (including international). Just because the French ST is inaccurate does not mean the English should be as well. Hence it could be said that the Prix d'Amérique is the biggest HARNESS RACE in France and is the most popular race in terms of domestic wagers (9 million betting slips).
I repeat that I really like Phil's meaning of ordinary people for the FR use of "populaire" here, and that it exists in EN as a meaning too, altho' is used much less often in that way.
"Biggest" is perhaps not so good as "greatest" : that covers size, impression, whatever.
But honestly, there is absolutely nothing in the original to support a meaning of "most bet-upon". That element is dealt with later in the sentence. It follows on, but is a separate point : greatest (= size/impressive (advertisng puff type language), popular (= wide appeal) then "avec un record absolu, etc.".
"You can't really say that it's " the most bet-upon race in France " as that isn't what the original text says; it says it's the 'greatest' meeting, not in terms of spectators attending, but in terms of money wagered within France on the Pari-Mutuel, i.e, domestically, and on public perceptions of the meeting, including media coverage, etc." (my emphasis).
The Prix d'Amérique has a special place in French popular culture, starting as a tribute to America's role in saving France in the First World War. It's a great social event for all classes. I think "le plus grand" refers to all this sort of thing, rather than just financial statistics, how many million euros are bet on it compared to the Arc de Triomphe.
By the way, the word "term", as used on this site, is shorthand for "term or short phrase".
I think there's a good argument for translating "le plus grand" as "the greatest" rather than "the biggest". It seems to me that "grand" probably refers not to some numerical criterion, such as volume of betting, but to the importance of this race as a popular event. The volume of betting is no doubt one of the things that makes it the greatest, but more generally, it probably means the event dearest to the heart of the French public (like the Grand National, rather than the Derby, in the UK).
I like your suggestion of "ordinary" for the meaning of "populaire".
"Populaire" has a number of meanings but one not to be overlooked in French, as it is used is this way a great deal, is that of an event that attracts people from all different walks of life, but particularly the ones from lower socio-economic classes, who might not otherwise attend this type of event. That notion is difficult to translate in English, at least, in some politically correct form. However, the same meaning does exist in the English term. (See the Oxford dic entry).
Those meanings can range from being the one which has the greatest number of people attending to the one that is most loved, but the term can also describe one that is attended and/or appreciated by people of lower social economic classes.
The point is that does not matter for your translation as the English term carries the same nuances as the French term. Further, the sentence concerned goes on to say that the event in question has the all-time record of the amount wagered.
In my opinion, "most bet-upon" for "le plus populaire" is not correct here. The second part of the sentence describes the record element and "most bet-upon" does not mean the greatest amount either. It could mean it has the most number of bets, for example. In fact, I think it is a mistranslation of "populaire" here.
("Le plus grand" in different contexts might mean the most racegoers, the most bet-on, the most horses/races, the one taking place over the largest area, the most money spent, ... )