Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
condamnées en permanence
English translation:
permanently closed, sealed off
Added to glossary by
EirTranslations
Jul 19, 2017 12:06
7 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
Spain
20 yrs+ quality translations, Trados
Native in: Spanish 
, English (Variants: US, British, Irish, UK)
Works in: English to Spanish, Spanish to English, Italian to English, and 8 more.
condamnées en permanence
Non-PRO
French to English
Social Sciences
Environment & Ecology
Water diversion
I'd go with permanently closed but not seen this sentence like this, many thanks
Le périmètre de protection immediate sera acquis et clôture par la collectivité.
Les clôtures qui entourent ce périmétre de protection devront être entretenues et réparties chaque fois que l'on aura constaté une dégradation de leur efficacité.
Les portes d'accès à l'enceinte devront être condamnées en permanence; les dispositifs interdisant l'accès aux ouvrages (forage, station de pompage et réservoir) devront être installés, entretenus et verrouillés en permanence,
Le périmètre de protection immediate sera acquis et clôture par la collectivité.
Les clôtures qui entourent ce périmétre de protection devront être entretenues et réparties chaque fois que l'on aura constaté une dégradation de leur efficacité.
Les portes d'accès à l'enceinte devront être condamnées en permanence; les dispositifs interdisant l'accès aux ouvrages (forage, station de pompage et réservoir) devront être installés, entretenus et verrouillés en permanence,
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Jul 20, 2017 11:05: Tony M changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:
Non-PRO (3): Nikki Scott-Despaigne, Victoria Britten, Tony M
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Proposed translations
+5
58 mins
Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
Israel
Israel
Native in English
Specializes in field
Israel
Quality, Reliability, Experience.
Native in: English , Romanian
Works in: French to English, Hebrew to English, Romanian to English, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "thx"
-2
16 mins
permanently sequestered
Literally commandeered, but that suggests something more actively forcible than this situation
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Note added at 1 hr (2017-07-19 13:47:35 GMT)
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"take forcible possession of (something); confiscate.
"rebel property was sequestered and a military government installed""
"Mayor Harvey Johnson Jr. argues that gates delay city firefighters and police access to the sequestered community, and said such a gate could pose an insurance risk to cumbersome city or contracted vehicles, such as garbage trucks. He also said the gate may be a problem for city employees who must visit homes to read water meters." http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2011/jun/01/to-gate-or-...
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Note added at 1 hr (2017-07-19 13:47:35 GMT)
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"take forcible possession of (something); confiscate.
"rebel property was sequestered and a military government installed""
"Mayor Harvey Johnson Jr. argues that gates delay city firefighters and police access to the sequestered community, and said such a gate could pose an insurance risk to cumbersome city or contracted vehicles, such as garbage trucks. He also said the gate may be a problem for city employees who must visit homes to read water meters." http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2011/jun/01/to-gate-or-...
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
: Nope
43 mins
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Sorry.
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| disagree |
Tony M
: Not here. That isn't the meaning of 'condamné' in this sort of context.
2 hrs
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| neutral |
philgoddard
: I think you're confusing the two meanings of "sequestered": sealed off, and confiscated. The "enceinte" could be sequestered, though that would be an unusual choice of words. But the gates couldn't.
3 hrs
|
-2
14 hrs
French term (edited):
condamnées en permanence
to be kept condemned at all time
Les portes d'accès à l'enceinte devront être condamnées en permanence
=
.... kept condemned at all time
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="condemned door"
midi ... quatorze heures ... ? What's the point of seeing "false friends" where there is none?
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Note added at 14 hrs (2017-07-20 02:44:34 GMT)
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also
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="condemned door"&source=ln...
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Note added at 14 hrs (2017-07-20 02:45:23 GMT)
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http://images.mydoorsign.com/img/lg/S/keep-door-closed-notic...
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Note added at 14 hrs (2017-07-20 02:47:05 GMT)
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... to be kept condemned at all times
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Note added at 14 hrs (2017-07-20 02:48:33 GMT)
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i.e. never unblock this door, let alone open it.
=
.... kept condemned at all time
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="condemned door"
midi ... quatorze heures ... ? What's the point of seeing "false friends" where there is none?
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Note added at 14 hrs (2017-07-20 02:44:34 GMT)
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also
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="condemned door"&source=ln...
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Note added at 14 hrs (2017-07-20 02:45:23 GMT)
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http://images.mydoorsign.com/img/lg/S/keep-door-closed-notic...
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Note added at 14 hrs (2017-07-20 02:47:05 GMT)
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... to be kept condemned at all times
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Note added at 14 hrs (2017-07-20 02:48:33 GMT)
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i.e. never unblock this door, let alone open it.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Tony M
: I'm afraid it IS a 'false friend', though; your search reveals precious few hits, many of them from the same sources. 'Condemned' isn't really used like this in modern EN, except in the sense of 'condemned, to be demolished'.
3 hrs
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the initial reason for this answer is that I've heard it more than once in real life! in London UK, by native speakers, BTW ...
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| disagree |
philgoddard
: Unlike you, I only disagree with people when they're wrong. You're wrong. No native speaker would say this.
9 hrs
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I must have been dreaming when I heard it / read it ... BTW you meant "native to the relevant trade" or just plain "native"? You may believe it or not, but in some fields it does make some difference ...
|
+2
58 mins
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
sealed off
.
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Note added at 59 mins (2017-07-19 13:06:13 GMT)
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Sorry, that should read "permanently sealed off", a common way of expressing how an entrance, acces, etc. are blocked, banned, closed permanently.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2017-07-19 17:38:32 GMT)
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Just a quick extra note to say that from the original, you could have identified the exrpession "condamner une porte" which is in fact quite ordinary French, and punched it into the Google answering machine ;-)
From the very basic lock-the-door-and-throw-away-the-key approach to a full DIY job where you plaster over the door, or the hole once you've bricked up the doorway, there are online dictionaries which provide suitable explanations.
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Note added at 22 hrs (2017-07-20 10:40:20 GMT)
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I make clear that the FR "condamndé" can be anything from locked permanently to actually being bricked up. I still consider that in both cases "sealed off" applies, without therefore necessarily meaning "bricked up".
Tony makes the point that it can just mean kept locked at all times. I consider that to be a little under the meaning of "condamndé", although it is used, as I say myself. the idea behind "condamné", is that he door is kept locked permanently, that it hasn't been used for years, for example and that it might even be never used again. "Kept locked at all times" suggests something less final.
When is a locked door a "porte condamndée" or not?
I keep the door to my appartment "locked at all times". However I do use it to enter the appartment, and to leave, ?! It would never cross my mind to back-translate that to having sealed the entrance to my home.
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Note added at 22 hrs (2017-07-20 10:46:06 GMT)
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Sotrytime:
As a student, I lived in the converted stables of Shipton Manor in Shipton-under-Wychwood and went into Oxford by train or scooter for lectures. The mannorhouse "appeared" in a TV ad for cigars that might make you think of Shakespeare. Check it out, quite an amazing place, then owned by two wonderful sisters who allowed me to play their grand piano sometimes and would leave us homebaked case on the doorstep from time to time.
The main manor house (the stables being round tha back) had been divided up and sold into four (?) separate units. As the sisters had not wished to alter the appearance of the house in anyway, they simply "sealed off" the separate units by locking the doors and throwing away the keys.
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Note added at 59 mins (2017-07-19 13:06:13 GMT)
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Sorry, that should read "permanently sealed off", a common way of expressing how an entrance, acces, etc. are blocked, banned, closed permanently.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2017-07-19 17:38:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Just a quick extra note to say that from the original, you could have identified the exrpession "condamner une porte" which is in fact quite ordinary French, and punched it into the Google answering machine ;-)
From the very basic lock-the-door-and-throw-away-the-key approach to a full DIY job where you plaster over the door, or the hole once you've bricked up the doorway, there are online dictionaries which provide suitable explanations.
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Note added at 22 hrs (2017-07-20 10:40:20 GMT)
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I make clear that the FR "condamndé" can be anything from locked permanently to actually being bricked up. I still consider that in both cases "sealed off" applies, without therefore necessarily meaning "bricked up".
Tony makes the point that it can just mean kept locked at all times. I consider that to be a little under the meaning of "condamndé", although it is used, as I say myself. the idea behind "condamné", is that he door is kept locked permanently, that it hasn't been used for years, for example and that it might even be never used again. "Kept locked at all times" suggests something less final.
When is a locked door a "porte condamndée" or not?
I keep the door to my appartment "locked at all times". However I do use it to enter the appartment, and to leave, ?! It would never cross my mind to back-translate that to having sealed the entrance to my home.
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Note added at 22 hrs (2017-07-20 10:46:06 GMT)
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Sotrytime:
As a student, I lived in the converted stables of Shipton Manor in Shipton-under-Wychwood and went into Oxford by train or scooter for lectures. The mannorhouse "appeared" in a TV ad for cigars that might make you think of Shakespeare. Check it out, quite an amazing place, then owned by two wonderful sisters who allowed me to play their grand piano sometimes and would leave us homebaked case on the doorstep from time to time.
The main manor house (the stables being round tha back) had been divided up and sold into four (?) separate units. As the sisters had not wished to alter the appearance of the house in anyway, they simply "sealed off" the separate units by locking the doors and throwing away the keys.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
6 mins
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| agree |
ph-b (X)
: Although not my native language, it seems to me that ‘seal off’ accurately reflects barrer/boucher/fermer/murer, especially the latter, which TLFi lists as syns. for condamner in this context.
2 hrs
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| neutral |
Tony M
: I think 'sealed' is too strong and inappropriate here..
17 hrs
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"Sealed (off)" is the term employed even if the door is just locked and the key thrown away. Sealed does not imply, for example, that the doorway is bricked up, or made airtight.
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-1
18 hrs
French term (edited):
condamné en permanence
kept securely locked shut at all times
It is pretty obvious that these 'portes' (presumably doors here) cannot be literally bricked up etc. — authorized access will be needed at times.
'Condamner' can be on varous levels, it basically just means 'to stop someone from using it' — nothing like as strong as the modern sense of 'condemned' in EN, which would usually mean e.g. an unsafe building that is condemned to be demolished, for example.
Likewise 'sealing' seems to me too strong here; remember, you can have a 'condamnation' on a bathroom door, which is simply a privacy lock!
I think this would therefore be a more suitable solution for the particular context in question.
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Note added at 22 heures (2017-07-20 11:02:46 GMT)
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It is obvious that for this type of installation, it cannot be literally 'permanently sealed' for ever — it will be necessary for official operatives to access it from time to time; it is just necessary to constantly prevent unauthorized access.
There is a nuance of meaning in the FR 'en permanence' that is second 'false friend', really — it very often means 'continuously' or 'continually', with the sense of 'at all times' — but NOT 'forever' (cf. 'permanent marker' in EN).
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Note added at 23 heures (2017-07-20 11:07:32 GMT)
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In very many fields, when we talk about something being 'condamné', we simply mean it is taken out of service / prevented from being used. I repeat my comment about the bathroom door, where one would certainly not say the bathroom door has to be 'sealed up' so I can take my shower!
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Note added at 2 jours20 heures (2017-07-22 08:35:05 GMT)
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Of course, it does also slightly depend on whether these ARE in fact 'doors' or not; it isn't clear to me if the 'enceinte' mentioned is the larger fenced enclosure (gates), or the buildings within it (doors). I had initially assumed the latter, but then they mention 'station de pompage' (= the building) separately later.
If these are indeed 'gates' in the 'perimeter fence', then clearly they cannot be 'bricked up' or 'boarded up'; it is also made clear that 'locking' is involved, but for a gate one might perhaps say 'locked and barred', for example.
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Note added at 13 jours (2017-08-01 20:26:28 GMT) Post-grading
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The underlying meaning of 'condamner' is 'unequivocally prevent from being used' — it makes no specific comment as to the means used, which of course need to be appropriate for the object in question.
'en permanence' does not by any means 'forever', which tends to be the main sense of 'permanently' in EN — which in fact is often a better translation of 'définitivement'. In many other uses, where we say something must be, for example 'surveillé en permanence', it wouldn't be natural to say 'permanently monitored / supervised' in EN — we'd much more naturally say 'constantly' (or sometimes 'continuously'). We may talke about amachine operating 'en régime permanent' — it doesn't mean it is 'permanently operating', but rather 'in continuous / steady-state operation'. In technical texts, these subtle differences are all-important, even though they may escape the lay reader.
'Condamner' can be on varous levels, it basically just means 'to stop someone from using it' — nothing like as strong as the modern sense of 'condemned' in EN, which would usually mean e.g. an unsafe building that is condemned to be demolished, for example.
Likewise 'sealing' seems to me too strong here; remember, you can have a 'condamnation' on a bathroom door, which is simply a privacy lock!
I think this would therefore be a more suitable solution for the particular context in question.
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Note added at 22 heures (2017-07-20 11:02:46 GMT)
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It is obvious that for this type of installation, it cannot be literally 'permanently sealed' for ever — it will be necessary for official operatives to access it from time to time; it is just necessary to constantly prevent unauthorized access.
There is a nuance of meaning in the FR 'en permanence' that is second 'false friend', really — it very often means 'continuously' or 'continually', with the sense of 'at all times' — but NOT 'forever' (cf. 'permanent marker' in EN).
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Note added at 23 heures (2017-07-20 11:07:32 GMT)
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In very many fields, when we talk about something being 'condamné', we simply mean it is taken out of service / prevented from being used. I repeat my comment about the bathroom door, where one would certainly not say the bathroom door has to be 'sealed up' so I can take my shower!
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Note added at 2 jours20 heures (2017-07-22 08:35:05 GMT)
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Of course, it does also slightly depend on whether these ARE in fact 'doors' or not; it isn't clear to me if the 'enceinte' mentioned is the larger fenced enclosure (gates), or the buildings within it (doors). I had initially assumed the latter, but then they mention 'station de pompage' (= the building) separately later.
If these are indeed 'gates' in the 'perimeter fence', then clearly they cannot be 'bricked up' or 'boarded up'; it is also made clear that 'locking' is involved, but for a gate one might perhaps say 'locked and barred', for example.
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Note added at 13 jours (2017-08-01 20:26:28 GMT) Post-grading
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The underlying meaning of 'condamner' is 'unequivocally prevent from being used' — it makes no specific comment as to the means used, which of course need to be appropriate for the object in question.
'en permanence' does not by any means 'forever', which tends to be the main sense of 'permanently' in EN — which in fact is often a better translation of 'définitivement'. In many other uses, where we say something must be, for example 'surveillé en permanence', it wouldn't be natural to say 'permanently monitored / supervised' in EN — we'd much more naturally say 'constantly' (or sometimes 'continuously'). We may talke about amachine operating 'en régime permanent' — it doesn't mean it is 'permanently operating', but rather 'in continuous / steady-state operation'. In technical texts, these subtle differences are all-important, even though they may escape the lay reader.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
GILLES MEUNIER
: locked shut est redondant à mon avis
2 hrs
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Absolutely not! It has to be shut, and it must be locked; it can't be 'locked open', this is normal usage in EN.
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| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: "Condamndé en permanence" is more perm. than locked at all times. I have certainly seen "condamné" used in the situation you describe, but with "at all times", you lose the permanance and combined with "locked": making sure the door stays locked.
4 hrs
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There is a nuance of difference between 'at all times '(except when you need to use it) and 'permanently', which tends to imply 'forever' in EN, but not in FR.
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| neutral |
Daryo
: I would understand it as more than just "locked" - I would expect something quite difficult to get rid of like nailed planks/a permanently anchored grill etc
1 day 21 hrs
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But it's obvious that access will be required, so it CAN'T be more than 'locked'; but qualified with 'securely locked shut' makes it clear enough, I feel.
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