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La mention de légitimation
produits
May 24, 2017 16:31
7 yrs ago
3 viewers *
French term

puits de cuve

French to English Tech/Engineering Nuclear Eng/Sci
This is in a document on a nuclear plant:

système de noyage du puits de cuve permettant la rétention du corium
Un système de circulation d’eau dans le puits de cuve refroidit l’extérieur de la cuve et provoque le gel du corium et son refroidissement.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 reactor pit
4 +1 reactor cavity
3 -2 reactor vessel

Discussion

jessjess (asker) May 28, 2017:
Thank you very much everyone, thank you for your help and sharing your expertise.
Have a nice day
Jessica
Herbmione Granger May 27, 2017:
Both Valid Yes, I agree that both terms are suitable in this context. However, I think that "reactor cavity" would be the better choice, considering its popularity in the chemistry literature and the ambiguity of "pit" in nucleonics. Of course, I have a USA/chemistry bias, though :)
GabrielaCirstea May 27, 2017:
@herbalchemist: I'm glad you found the reference useful. And yes, it seems that both "pit" and "cavity" are used, so they are both correct.
Herbmione Granger May 27, 2017:
@GabrielaC Thank you for the informative reference: http://www.irsn.fr/EN/publications/technical-publications/Do... This reference labels the region just outside the reactor vessel "reactor pit," which is the same region as the "reactor cavity" in my various references. It seems, then, that "reactor pit" is used in European publications (although Elsevier is a European publisher: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0029549313... whereas "reactor cavity" is used in American and Japanese publications.
Herbmione Granger May 27, 2017:
clarification I am not an authority in this particular discipline but rather general chemistry research. I became suspicious when "reactor pit" did not give many relevant search results and did some investigation. My conclusions could be wrong.
Herbmione Granger May 27, 2017:
@TonyM That is what I read from the text also. Outside the reactor vessel is a secondary containment area filled with gas that is cooled by convection or moving water in pipes: http://nuclear-research.tamu.edu/thermal-hydraulic-research-... After initiation of a shutdown, the cavity is flooded with water or a mixture of water and other coolant: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0029549313... It seems that the design of RCCS's is a "hot topic" (pun intended) in research: https://advanceseng.com/general-engineering/new-reactor-cavi... The nuclear reactor at Chernobyl did not have an efficient cooling system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBMK.
Tony M May 27, 2017:
As a total non-expert in this field... ... I would just like to point out that, from a purely linguistic point of view, the source text SEEMS to be suggesting that the 'puits' is outside the 'cuve' (surely that's the 'reactor vessel'?) — water circulating in the 'puits' will cool the OUTSIDE of the 'cuve', thereby indirectly cooling the corium that is INSIDE the cuve?
Herbmione Granger May 27, 2017:
@TonyM Thanks for the explanation. I understand your approach now, which *should* have been completely valid. I did not want to step on any toes while opening this can of worms.
Tony M May 27, 2017:
@ Herbalchemist Whilst I certainly do not share your expertise in the subject area, I certainly do share your misgivings about the entries in the KudoZ glossary, which are only of value if interpreted with intelligence, and in the light of in-depth personal research.
I would, however, just like to underline one point I've already made: this use of 'pit' is not just some arbitrary consensus of non-expert translators — it is also the official term approved by the FR PWR manufacturer FRAM.
That said, of course, it is sadly not unheard of for such companies to also "get it wrong" :-(
Herbmione Granger May 27, 2017:
@mrrafe I am also taken aback by the insistence of "pit". This may be a routine translation from the French and the German terms, based on the bi-lingual dictionaries I've viewed, but I am pretty sure that the thought-object that the "puits de cuve" refers to is called "reactor cavity" in English, just as I am sure that the system being described is a "reactor cavity cooling system." Looks like I will "lose" this game, but at least we helped the Asker, who seems to also be wondering if the previous translations of "puits de cuve" were accurate.
mrrafe May 27, 2017:
Maybe the problem for me throughout these entries is that "systeme" (de noyage or de circulation) suggested a noncatastrophic condition in a non-HGTR unit. I don't operate these plants but I've litigated them in US EN and it never would occur to me to identify the coolant location, in normal operation, as the "pit." (Again, note the photo of the person walking through the concrete "pit" in the Fukushima sunshine. Granted, photo captions can be wrong, but so can the ProZ glossary.) We may be discussing the same thing but in different originating languages or different EN naming conventions.
Herbmione Granger May 25, 2017:
@mrrafe Hi, I did mean to give you credit for this diagram: http://www.livescience.com/13230-infographic-japan-nuclear-r... The reactor cavity that I am talking about is the space between the "reactor vessel" and "steel containment vessel," the space in which the pipes filled with moving coolant are located. These diagrams show this: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0029549313... In an emergency, the coolant from the pipes can be used to flood the reactor cavity. Under normal conditions, the "reactor cavity cooling system" is used to cool down this space: http://nuclear-research.tamu.edu/thermal-hydraulic-research-... I agree with you that "reactor pit" could be mistaken for the hole in the ground where the whole reactor system is located. The only instance in an online search that I found where they might be using "reactor pit" to mean "reactor cavity" is a temperature measurement project description: https://www.osti.gov/scitech/biblio/4115467-temperature-meas...
mrrafe May 25, 2017:
Herbalchemist, you may be going astray in a couple of ways. First, I think the diagram you're citing was mine, not Tony's and I offered it to show that the pit is outside the vessel. Second, all the authorities cited here seem to agree that coolant does not belong in the pit except during a severe accident far more serious than what would trigger a typical emergency shutdown. Third, the freedictionary is discussing a system in high temp gas cooled reactors which exist almost nowhere unless the Klingons, for whom I have the utmost respect, use them in the Beta Quadrant. If HGTRs exist they lack emergency cooling systems, in the pit or the vessel, and, indeed, use no conventional coolants. FWIW, the ProZ glossary defines cuve as EN vat, which (as the picture shows) resembles the reactor vessel rather than the surrounding concrete room or "pit." Seriously, if there's coolant in the pit, it's not a systeme de refroidissement, it's a signal to hop a fast truck out of town.
Herbmione Granger May 24, 2017:
pit vs. cavity Tony M.'s diagram cleared up the reason, beyond a literal translation, why the "puits de cuve" does not refer to the vessel (le cuve). As for "reactor pit", although I saw a few sources where it *might* have been referring to the space just outside the vessel, I wasn't convinced that this was a good translation. I would be more comfortable using "reactor cavity," since it is used extensively in the field. "Reactor cavity cooling system" is a standard term: http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/reactor cavity co... Furthermore, "pit" has another meaning, which is a nuclear weapon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_(nuclear_weapon). Most importantly, "reactor pit" is a Klingon term meaning "main engineering": http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Engineering.
liz askew May 24, 2017:
possibly useful:
www.epr-reactor.co.uk/.../2.F.2.6 - Foundation Raft Protect...
To promote corium spreading in the recovery tank, the EPR concept is based on a temporary corium retention stage in the reactor pit. It is likely that corium would ...
liz askew May 24, 2017:
puits de cuve > reactor pit - ProZ.com
www.proz.com › KudoZ home › French to English › Nuclear Eng/Sci
13 Feb 2005 - (KudoZ) French to English translation of puits de cuve: reactor pit [Nuclear Eng/Sci (Science)].

Proposed translations

+3
36 mins
Selected

reactor pit

A primary system for cooling the reactor; a reactor pit.
Note from asker:
Thank you very much!
Peer comment(s):
disagree mrrafe : I think the coolant would be in the vessel, not the pit. FRAM may use the term, but not for the coolant container. The pit also has folks walking around in the sunshine. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-quake-idUSTRE72A0SS2...
28 mins
neutral Tony M : This is an official term used by FRAM; however, I am not an expert in this field, so I bow to the arguments of those who are.
46 mins
agree B D Finch
2 hrs
agree Terry Richards
14 hrs
agree Johannes Gleim
16 hrs
agree GabrielaCirstea : ”... reactor pit flooding increases the possibilities of maintaining the corium in the vessel”; Source: http://www.irsn.fr/EN/publications/technical-publications/Do...
2 days 18 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much!"
-2
1 hr

reactor vessel

The pit is an excavation, like a cellar or sump, that holds the vessel, which in turn holds circulating coolant and other systems as well as the fuel. I haven't looked at the ProZ glossary but I think the corium coolant would have to be in the vessel.
Note from asker:
Thank you very much!
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : This is not how the nuclear technology works; the context clearly says that this coolant makes it possible to cool the OUTSIDE of the 'cuve' (= 'vessel'); "I think" here is a dangerous game.
11 mins
The pit is the concrete sump. The coolant is outside the core (core therefore has to be the meaning of cuve in this case) but inside the vessel. Or else hit the alarm and run. http://www.livescience.com/13230-infographic-japan-nuclear-r...
disagree GabrielaCirstea : Core is the English equivalent of ”cœur du réacteur nucléaire”. For more info, see http://www.sfen.org/fr/lenergie-nucleaire/le-fonctionnement-...
1 day 14 hrs
Yes, your link shows that the fuel and coolant are in what your author and I call the core. The core is in what I call the vessel.
Something went wrong...
+1
4 hrs

reactor cavity

The cavity is outside, not inside the reactor. It's purpose is to be an intermediary environment that protects the outside environment from the heat and radiation of the reactor. One of the ways is to flood the cavity with a coolant, as in these cases: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0029549313... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0951832097... ; https://www.google.com/patents/US5825838.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2017-05-24 21:25:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I might have misrepresented the cavity's purpose. You can read about it on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LFCM > "Reactor vessel breaching"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2017-05-25 09:02:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A better explanation was prompted by the discussion above: 'Hi [mrrafe], I did mean to give you credit for this diagram: http://www.livescience.com/13230-infographic-japan-nuclear-r... The reactor cavity that I am talking about is the space between the "reactor vessel" and "steel containment vessel," the space in which the pipes filled with moving coolant are located. These diagrams show this: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0029549313... In an emergency, the coolant from the pipes can be used to flood the reactor cavity. Under normal conditions, the "reactor cavity cooling system" is used to cool down this space: http://nuclear-research.tamu.edu/thermal-hydraulic-research-... I agree with you that "reactor pit" could be mistaken for the hole in the ground where the whole reactor system is located. The only instance in an online search that I found where they might be using "reactor pit" to mean "reactor cavity" is a temperature measurement project description: https://www.osti.gov/scitech/biblio/4115467-temperature-meas...
Reference:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0951832097001579

https://www.google.com/patents/US5825838

Note from asker:
Thank you very much!
Peer comment(s):
neutral mrrafe : Agreed that the core is in (what I would call) the cavity and both can contain coolant in a noncatastrophic emergency shutdown. /// Not worried about nuclear, just worried that ProZ won't pay me for my answer. { :-(
2 days 7 hrs
:)
agree GabrielaCirstea
2 days 21 hrs
Something went wrong...
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