Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
elle s’identifie avec lui
English translation:
the actions taken confirm the existence of an order
Added to glossary by
Wendy Cummings
Aug 15, 2016 13:55
8 yrs ago
French term
United Kingdom
The highest professional standards
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English
elle s’identifie avec lui
French to English
Law/Patents
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
military transport regulations dispute
Taken from a rather convoluted document submitted to the Council of State about a couple of cases in 1919, at a time when the railways were under control of the military authorities. In short, appellants are claiming that the Commission de Reseau issued an order but had not been given authority to do so.
...admettons que l’administration ne justifie pas d’un ordre écrit du général en chef. Mais les règlements le requéraient-ils ?
En aucune façon et, à les parcourir, on ne trouvera jamais trace, lorsqu’il s’agit de décisions d’une autorité supérieure, de l’obligation d’un ordre écrit, parce que toute l’économie de l’organisation du haut commandement repose sur la seule nécessité de simples « instructions d’ensemble » disent les textes, qui peuvent être prises sous la forme que dictent les événements : téléphoniques, écrites, verbales même au cours de conférences qui sont une partie essentielle de la méthode féconde des états-majors,
Vous êtes en présence d’un fait : l’ouverture des lignes au trafic privé. Elle suppose nécessairement l’ordre écrit ou verbal de l’autorité supérieure; elle s’identifie avec lui, alors surtout qu’aucune décision ultérieure n’est venue le supporter et qu’il a été confirmé par des mesures d’exécution (affichages ou autres) constantes, ininterrompues, jamais désavouées.
Hopefully that gives enough context to make sense, but I can supply more if required. I am struggling with the phrase in bold. The closest I can come up with is "it appears as though that were the case/all indications point to that being the case".
Thank you.
...admettons que l’administration ne justifie pas d’un ordre écrit du général en chef. Mais les règlements le requéraient-ils ?
En aucune façon et, à les parcourir, on ne trouvera jamais trace, lorsqu’il s’agit de décisions d’une autorité supérieure, de l’obligation d’un ordre écrit, parce que toute l’économie de l’organisation du haut commandement repose sur la seule nécessité de simples « instructions d’ensemble » disent les textes, qui peuvent être prises sous la forme que dictent les événements : téléphoniques, écrites, verbales même au cours de conférences qui sont une partie essentielle de la méthode féconde des états-majors,
Vous êtes en présence d’un fait : l’ouverture des lignes au trafic privé. Elle suppose nécessairement l’ordre écrit ou verbal de l’autorité supérieure; elle s’identifie avec lui, alors surtout qu’aucune décision ultérieure n’est venue le supporter et qu’il a été confirmé par des mesures d’exécution (affichages ou autres) constantes, ininterrompues, jamais désavouées.
Hopefully that gives enough context to make sense, but I can supply more if required. I am struggling with the phrase in bold. The closest I can come up with is "it appears as though that were the case/all indications point to that being the case".
Thank you.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 5 +1 | the actions taken confirm the existence of an order / are the order |
Daryo
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| 3 -1 | it goes hand in hand with it (high command authority) |
Francois Boye
|
| 3 -1 | in complete agreement with |
chaplin
|
Proposed translations
+1
1 day 11 hrs
French term (edited):
elle [= l'ouverture l’ouverture des lignes au trafic privé] s’identifie avec lui [un odre]
Selected
the actions taken confirm the existence of an order / are the order
the whole sentence will have to be rephrased - the key step is to get first the intended meaning
elle [= l'ouverture effective des lignes au trafic privé] s’identifie avec lui [l'ordre d'ouvrir des lignes au trafic privé]
this is variation on "accepting a contract by executing it" i.e. the simple fact of executing a proposed contract is proof of acceptance, even if the contract was never signed nor even verbally accepted;
HERE the simple fact that an order was continuously executed without any hindrance for a period of time is the proof of existence of the order (doesn't matter if the order was never put in writing, and was maybe just given verbally during a meeting) / replace the order
"elle" [the fact that railway lines were open to private traffic / that private traffic went on unhindered] is the same as / is identical to "il" [an order given to that effect]
Vous êtes en présence d’un fait : l’ouverture des lignes au trafic privé. Elle suppose nécessairement l’ordre écrit ou verbal de l’autorité supérieure; elle s’identifie avec lui, alors surtout qu’aucune décision ultérieure n’est venue le supporter et qu’il a été confirmé par des mesures d’exécution (affichages ou autres) constantes, ininterrompues, jamais désavouées.
You are faced with a fact: .... . This fact implies that a written or verbal order must have been given by the superior authority THIS FACT takes the identity of THIS ORDER, ...
elle [= l'ouverture effective des lignes au trafic privé] s’identifie avec lui [l'ordre d'ouvrir des lignes au trafic privé]
this is variation on "accepting a contract by executing it" i.e. the simple fact of executing a proposed contract is proof of acceptance, even if the contract was never signed nor even verbally accepted;
HERE the simple fact that an order was continuously executed without any hindrance for a period of time is the proof of existence of the order (doesn't matter if the order was never put in writing, and was maybe just given verbally during a meeting) / replace the order
"elle" [the fact that railway lines were open to private traffic / that private traffic went on unhindered] is the same as / is identical to "il" [an order given to that effect]
Vous êtes en présence d’un fait : l’ouverture des lignes au trafic privé. Elle suppose nécessairement l’ordre écrit ou verbal de l’autorité supérieure; elle s’identifie avec lui, alors surtout qu’aucune décision ultérieure n’est venue le supporter et qu’il a été confirmé par des mesures d’exécution (affichages ou autres) constantes, ininterrompues, jamais désavouées.
You are faced with a fact: .... . This fact implies that a written or verbal order must have been given by the superior authority THIS FACT takes the identity of THIS ORDER, ...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
B D Finch
: The performance implies the existence of an order.
10 hrs
|
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Yes, another way of saying it. Thanks!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you. I had been considering the "hand in hand" option, with the wording "the two go hand in hand" in order to avoid the it/it issue raised by Nikki. But I like this solution as it is much clearer and to the point. "
-1
1 hr
Francois Boye
United States
United States
Native in French
Specializes in field
United States
An economic geek with social skills
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
41
it goes hand in hand with it (high command authority)
The decision cannot be made by a person other than the High Command Authority.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2016-08-15 18:00:50 GMT)
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Erratum: 'they go hand in hand' instead of it goes hand in hand with it
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Note added at 4 hrs (2016-08-15 18:00:50 GMT)
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Erratum: 'they go hand in hand' instead of it goes hand in hand with it
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: "They go hand in hand". The powers that be issue "instr. d'ens.", so the fact that the lines were opened up means the order was given. Hwvr it'd appear no such order is/was to be found. (No caps on h. comm. auth.)/Cannot use "it" twice here. "They go...".
1 hr
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In US English, x and y go hand in hand = x (y) goes hand in hand with y (x)
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| disagree |
Daryo
: you have first to define what/who is the "elle" et "lui" and then you have a sporting chance of getting the intended meaning which is not the one you suppose
1 day 8 hrs
|
-1
9 hrs
in complete agreement with
Parce que je m'identifie, avec ces propos pleins de bon sens, à Jacques Delors, je n'ai pas voté en faveur du rapport de M. Duhamel.
europarl.europa.eu
In complete agreement with the common sense of Jacques Delors's words, I did not vote in favour of Mr Duhamel's report.
europarl.europa.eu
In complete agreement with the common sense of Jacques Delors's words, I did not vote in favour of Mr Duhamel's report.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Daryo
: you have first to define what/who is the "elle" et "lui" and then you have a sporting chance of getting the intended meaning which is not the one you suppose + this IS NOT politics but legal matters
1 day 27 mins
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Discussion
If this were about people, which it is not, then "she" and "he" could be used; there'd be no problem.