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¿Por qué asimilaban dejar descubierto un ojo con lo musulmán...
This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
May 2, 2016 08:35
8 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Spanish term

niño en muñeco de goma

Spanish to English Medical Medical (general) chikungunya virus
I have tried all kinds of combinations with bounce, rubber, bobble, rebound, and can't come up with anything that checks out or seems appropriate.

El diagnóstico clínico de los menores de 1 año de edad es más problemático. No obstante, aunando los signos al nexo epidemiológico, puede lograrse una aproximación al diagnóstico con base en ciertas manifestaciones. Los niños afectados son irritables y no presentan gran movilidad; por el contrario, cuando se les mueve se tornan más irritables y vuelven a su posición original. Este signo se ha descrito como **“niño en muñeco de goma”**. Los pacientes de esta edad también presentan edema periarticular y, con menor frecuencia, lesiones cutáneas tipo
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 "child as rubber doll"
4 "rubber kid" (muñeco de goma)
4 roly-poly toy (effect)
3 "smart metal"
1 symptom of plastic baby/collodial baby

Discussion

Muriel Vasconcellos (asker) May 7, 2016:
Sorry everyone! I'm grateful for the interesting discussion and the various suggestions, but I wouldn't want any of these answers to go in the glossary. I have decided on 'elastic baby', but I'm not satisfied with that, either. If you have any more ideas, I'll be happy to reopen the question.
Charles Davis May 3, 2016:
Weeble syndrome Just looked it up. I think Messi's got it.
Charles Davis May 3, 2016:
@Neil I never had Weebles! Never even heard of them before. This is clearly the explanation for all my real or imaginary psychological problems: I had a deprived childhood.
neilmac May 3, 2016:
@Charles I knew the toys you mentioned as "Weebles": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeble ... Having said that, I don't think "weeble syndrome" will work either... despite over 30 hits on Google :-)
lugoben May 3, 2016:
Why rubber is the term used We are not doctors nor all doctors know the ins and out about the disease. Those who really understand the real problem a baby is facing with the symptom report what is available on line, whereas we can only report what we read and makes sense with the context. The term rubber was chosen because it is an element that has the following conditions:
1. It doesn't move by itself
2. If moved, it will return to its fixed position.

Now, if one compares the baby reasons for moving we have:
1. the baby will not move by itself because he knows it is an action that gives him bothersome pain.
2. If moved by whoever (mother, doctor, nurse) he/she will cry and will stop when he/she is returned to an unmoved position.

So in general terms, the comparison is drawn and everybody will understand what is meant by the term. There is no other reference than the PANAM HEALTH ORGANIZATION to give credit to the term asked. At the same time, no all slide presentations can be qualified as being less serious. The Organization is involved in Health problems around the world, and it deals with those in no other way than using terms that will be understood and accepted by all and sundry.
Charles Davis May 3, 2016:
Chile In Chilean slang a "mono de porfiado" is a "persona o entidad a la que se agravia todo el tiempo; ... persona a la que se agravia y vuelve por más; cf. muñeco de goma, porfiado", and "muñeco de goma" means "que se hace lo que se quiere con él; que es abusado; que se aprovechan de él: en esta empresa maltratan a la gente; [...] los suben y bajan todos los días como si fueran muñecos de goma; oye, si yo no soy nada muñeco de goma, por si acaso; yo también tengo sentimientos, para que sepas"
https://books.google.es/books?id=UwVYtrmBIEYC&pg=PT401&lpg=P...

In other words, someone like a "porfiado", that gets pushed around and comes back for more.
Muriel Vasconcellos (asker) May 3, 2016:
Clarification 1. "Rubber kid" appears in a slide from a PPT presentation (Pan American Health Organization, BTW, not Panama HO). It's quoting an article that was originally written in Spanish, so that's how we know it's a translation.
2. The document I'm translating is more serious. It's a technical handbook for use by physicians. It will be widely distributed.
Charles Davis May 3, 2016:
On page 10 of this file on Chikungunya in neonates, the caption "muñeco de goma" accompanies a picture of the baby lying on its back with its limbs drawn up. (Looking, in fact, like a normal baby to my eye.) The same picture with the same caption occurs in other files on the disease. Maybe it just implies a fixed position of the limbs?
http://www.paho.org/dor/images/stories/archivos/chikungunya/...
Charles Davis May 3, 2016:
@Andrew Whatever this metaphor is intended to imply, it certainly isn't verticality or inner ear problems. It can't be flexibility either. It is plainly resistance to being moved, to being put into a different position, and inclination to return to a preferred position. If I'm right that they are thinking of a "porfiado", that's all they mean by it. When people use a metaphor, they are focusing on a particular attribute that it has in common with what it describes. They assume that people will simply discard patently irrelevant attributes of the metaphorical term, such as verticality in this case.

As to whether I'm right about what kind of "muñeco de goma" they mean, well obviously a general image search will produce pictures of rubber toys. It doesn't usually mean a "porfiado", and to my knowledge it never does in Spain, for example. But it does, or can, in certain Latin American countries. And it fits the returning-to-equilibrium phenomenon. But they could just mean a static figure in a fixed posture, which is actually what many rubber figures are (i.e. not actually flexible at all).
Andrew Campbell May 3, 2016:
@Charles I do not agree that with your conclusion about the toy. A simple image search shows this is hardly the most dominant example of the toy with this name.
However, more importantly is does not match the Chikungunya virus symptoms, which have nothing to do with with the inner ear. By a long shot the fever or inflammation might induce labyrinthitis (though there is nothing in the literature) but even then it would not cause the child to return to an upright position, but more likely the opposite. While they say under 1 y.o., the idea is to diagnose babies whose symptoms are hard to read, so we can assume the younger ones (infants usually do not sit up until 5-7 months old).
I agree with you that the metaphor in Spanish is a poor one, but it is not the first time I have found doctors' attempts to describe a symptom wanting.
I think focusing on the "muñeco de goma" is the wrong approach. The idea is to make clear to those viewing the presentation what the symptom is. To this end I believe our disagreement may be very useful in identifying and teasing apart exactly what the described symptom is.
Charles Davis May 3, 2016:
@Andrew Once again I largely agree, but what I disagree with is that "the metaphor is that the toy can stretch or bend and return to its form". That's simply not the kind of toy they're talking about. It can't be. It creates a completely unsuitable metaphor in Spanish. My argument, as you know, is that this refers to a kind of toy which is called a "muñeco de goma" in some places (not in Spain) and whose property is spontaneously returning to a position of equilibrium. In my opinion that's a pretty good metaphor for the phenomenon it's supposed to express. I've indicated what that kind of toy is called in English. Whether it works as a translation is a matter of judgement.
Andrew Campbell May 3, 2016:
Elastic shares many of the same problems as rubber When I said "stretching" I put them in quote because the metaphor is that the toy can stretch or bend and return to its form not the child. Based on how Chikungunya works I believe we can assume we are talking about the original position of individual joints and limbs not so much total body position.
I do not think "elastic" escapes the problems presented by "rubber". Both imply an increased ability to move and lack of rigidity. Instead the central idea is that of the baby to return to a fixed position to avoid the pain in the joints when moved from that position.
The fact it is a slide from a presentation makes it even worse. To me it is clear this is not accepted terminology, but rather a coined term from a small group of doctors trying to express the idea.
If it were me I would either leave it in Spanish or eliminate it from the English version. In a slide any sufficiently short translation would only lead the audience away from the idea of the symptom they are trying to communicate.
Charles Davis May 3, 2016:
@ Neil Disagreeing with the message is not shooting the messenger! I'm not criticising lugoben, who is the messenger here. As Muriel mentioned, "rubber kid" in the Panama document is how someone translated the expression, and I personally don't think it was a good choice, that's all. I mean, this happens all the time with online translations, doesn't it?
neilmac May 3, 2016:
@Charles FWIW, "rubber" was used by the Panama Health Organization to describe this chikungunya virus symptom. Don't shoot the messenger!
neilmac May 3, 2016:
My 2 cents Given all the discussion so far, I think we need to make do with an explanation. I don't think there's a set way of expressing the condition neatly without risking confusion. And it appears in inverted commas in the original to start with... The only reference I found to 'elastic baby syndrome' seems to have been coined to talk about babies-in-waiting and "rubber baby/doll" is also less than suitable IMHO. It looks like this is as good as it gets.
Charles Davis May 3, 2016:
@Muriel Well, it conveys the idea that if you stretch these babies they spring back to their original shape, but is that really what this is about? Andrew said 'after being moved (or "stretched")' in his latest comment, but that puzzled me. To me, at least, moving a baby ("se les mueve") doesn't normally imply stretching it, which would presumably mean extending its limbs. What you do, if anything, is change the position of its whole body, by picking it up or turning it over. As I pointed out before, it does say "posición original". That could be a lying position, in a crib or in its mother's arms, or even perhaps a supported sitting position more or less upright.
Muriel Vasconcellos (asker) May 3, 2016:
elastic baby I just thought of this. What do you think?
Muriel Vasconcellos (asker) May 3, 2016:
bounce-back baby I thought of this, but the term also has an entirely different meaning - for couples who get back together after a trial separation and get pregnant right away.
Charles Davis May 3, 2016:
rubber I don't think the informality of "kid" is necessarily unsuitable; this is an informal expression in Spanish. My problem is with "rubber". I agree with Andrew that it has the wrong connotations in English; it suggests flexibility, which is the opposite of what these infants are. Or else bounciness. This is also true of "goma". Having had children in Spain I can testify that people here say "son de goma" of infants, meaning that they are surprising resilient; when they fall, they don't harm themselves as new parents fear they will. They "bounce". None of this conveys what this expression must be referring to; on the contrary. "Muñeco de goma" can't be meant to suggest these qualities. So I feel that "rubber" really shouldn't be used in the translation.
Muriel Vasconcellos (asker) May 2, 2016:
"Rubber kid" It's from a PowerPoint slide, so a degree of informality is understandable. Also, it's a translation from an original Spanish source, so that colleague's guess is as good as ours. We just have to decide whether we can do better or go along with the one-off translation.
Muriel Vasconcellos (asker) May 2, 2016:
About "moving" the baby These area children under 1 year old. The document notes elsewhere that most cases in children that young are due to mother-to-child transmission and that it's turning up in neonates 3 to 7 days after birth. *Therefore* references to moving the baby probably mean that he/she is lying in a crib, not sitting up or standing.
Charles Davis May 2, 2016:
@Andrew I agree with much of what you say, but I think the objection that the babies do not return to a standing or vertical position is over-literal; the same objection could be made to the Spanish expression, but I honestly don't think it would cross anyone's mind to read it that way. I think everyone who understands what they mean by a "muñeco de goma" here (which I didn't until I looked into it) will get the point, and that the same is true in English.

My intention was simply to use an expression that reproduces the metaphor used in Spanish.
Andrew Campbell May 2, 2016:
Charles description of the symptom is correct. It occurs that I have been taking for granted that the symptom described is clear. The virus causes extremely painful joint inflammation. Since we are dealing with newborns it can be difficult to understand their symptoms, but the fact they return to the original position is similar to infants with rh. arthritis who show no pain but almost never move the affected joints. Here the baby returns to the position it was in (where the joint inflammation is stabilized) after being moved (or "stretched"), whereas a normal baby with different symptoms would stay in the new position, or no symptoms would be likely to move autonomously to another new position. I can't say I agree with roly poly because the babies are obviously not returning to a standing/vertical position. I might suggest checking the literature for JRA since they might have a description of a similar symptom.
Charles Davis May 2, 2016:
Well... It does say "return to their original position" immediately before this.
neilmac May 2, 2016:
I agree We probably have to add an explanation along the lines of "returns to its original position when moved". Otherwise we run the risk of it being mistaken for the other disorders Andrew describes.
Andrew Campbell May 2, 2016:
While I think my colleagues answers are well thought out, and I see the limitations of my own suggestion, I think you must be very wary of using terminology that sounds like existing medical nomenclature that means something distant from the symptom described. Bobble-head doll syndrome is nearly the opposite of the symptom described, as is rubber man. Anything with doll syndrome risks associations with Agalmatophilia even if the context would rule it out. Another option given the quotes is to leave the text as is in Spanish with a parenthetical note along the lines of (meaning the child resembles a rubber ducky toy who returns to the original shape no matter how it is stretched or moved)
philgoddard May 2, 2016:
There's this Though the symptoms don't sound quite the same:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobble-head_doll_syndrome
Muriel Vasconcellos (asker) May 2, 2016:
@ Neil I already did look for descriptions of this effect - couldn't find any. My temporary translation has been 'rubber doll effect'.

Proposed translations

26 mins

"smart metal"

I think "finding" an English equivalent is a mistake in this case and would opt for a fuller description, but if you must then I think you need to focus on the symptom and not the words used to describe it in Spanish. Similar terms in English (such as "rubber man syndrome") suggest greater flexibility, when in Spanish the description coined by doctors is used to indicate the child's tendency to return to the position it was in before. In this sense I think the idea of smart metal would best communicate the idea of the symptom to readers.
If "smart metals" may not be sufficiently well known to the audience, I would still opt for something focusing on the meaning of the symptom rather than the Spanish description.
Example sentence:

The child's symptom has been described as the children "behaving like smart metals".

Peer comment(s):
neutral neilmac : You said it. "Smart metals" will likely be too recondite for most audiences. I'd look for native English descriptions of the symptoms (if I wasn't already up to my ears)...
1 hr
Something went wrong...
+2
2 hrs

"child as rubber doll"

Despite the very valid comments Andrew makes in his suggestion, I think we have to resign ourselves to using some sort of "rubber doll" phrase/metaphor. Note that it appears in quotation marks in the original anyway...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Andrew Campbell : I still think "rubber" would create more problems than it solves, but if we must I think "dummy" might work better than "doll" here.
32 mins
agree philgoddard : Rubber-doll syndrome would work.
1 hr
agree MollyRose : Agree that "rubber doll syndrome" sounds more natural and conveys the meaning.
1 day 12 hrs
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

"rubber kid" (muñeco de goma)

- Edema of hands and feet, erythema and palmoplantar swelling
-Widespread pain, predominantly in extremities
- Hyperalgesia and
irritability, "rubber kid“ (“muñeco de goma”)
1_+R+ANDRAGHETTI_CHIKV+dissemination.pdf page 35.
Dominican Republic, 2014-Source: V. Gomez
www.invs.sante.fr/.../1_ R ANDRAGHETTI_CHIKV dissemination....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2016-05-02 11:39:28 GMT)
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Alternative address due to failure to access document using address supplied. Document is identified as:
[PDF]Chikungunya virus (CHIKV) dissemination in the Americas ...
www.invs.sante.fr/.../1_ R ANDRAGHETTI_CHIKV dissemination....
Dec 6, 2013 - Challenges for monitoring the spread and impact: a. ... Spread of Chikungunya virus, 2004-2013. Adapted from: Tsetsarkin K and al. Chikungunya virus evolution: Evolution and genetic determinants of ... (“muñeco de goma”).
https://www.google.ca/?client=safari#channel=mac_bm&q= muñec...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2016-05-02 11:40:52 GMT)
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-Panama Health Organization-

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Note added at 3 hrs (2016-05-02 11:42:34 GMT)
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PANAM HEALTH ORGANIZATION
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : Muñeco is doll, and you can't use the colloquial "kid" in this context.
16 mins
I can't change that. It is reported as the PANAM ORGANIZATION doctors had it. It is a bit weird to use Kid, but There you have it. Thanks anyway for your commentary.
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4 hrs

roly-poly toy (effect)

I hit on this through the following comments on the word "porfiado" in Venezuela:

"porfiado
muñeco de goma
El "porfiado" es un muñeco hecho de goma.
Se le llama así porque no se mantiene en posición horizontal y si se lo coloca en esa posición vuelve a la vertical y por eso le dicen que es "porfiado".
la base es una sección esférica o hemisférica, permite un movimiento oscilante, se le coloca un peso grande en la base, lo mas bajo posible, al moverlo de la vertical, por efecto del bajo centro de gravedad o de masa, tiene la tendencia a oscilar como un péndulo invertido y volver a su posición vertical, que es la de mayor estabilidad o su "posición de equilibrio"."
http://www.tubabel.com/definicion/60879-porfiado

It suddenly came to me on reading this that "muñeco de goma" must be referring to this. It's nothing to do with being flexible; it means that the child behaves like one of these toys that "vuelven a su posición original" if you try to move them. (The explanation, of course, is that the virus causes the poor things terrible pain and they can't bear to be moved.)

So it's talking about the kind of toy called a tentetieso or porfiado in Spanish and a roly-poly doll, among other things, in English (according to Wikipedia; I've never known what they were called):

"A roly-poly toy, round-bottomed doll, tilting doll, tumbler or wobbly man is a toy that rights itself when pushed over."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roly-poly_toy

"Un tentetieso, tentempié, siempretieso (en Andalucía), porfiado, mono porfiado o muñeco porfiado es un muñeco con la base semiesférica que actúa de contrapeso de modo que tras golpearlo siempre vuelve a la posición inicial."
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tentetieso

I don't know whether it ought to be called a syndrome, which is a specific medical phenomenon. It's more a description of a symptom. Maybe "roly-poly toy effect" or "the child being like a roly-poly toy". Or of course one of the other names this toy can have (though "wobbly man" doesn't seem suitable for this context).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2016-05-02 13:09:16 GMT)
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"Roly-poly toy", if you go for that, or "tilting doll" or whatever, had better go in quotation marks, I think.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2016-05-02 13:12:23 GMT)
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The pain is particularly bad in the joints, I gather. In that situation it makes sense the child is going to adopt the default position that minimizes the pain, resist being moved from it and return to it as soon as possible.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2016-05-02 14:37:38 GMT)
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I didn't really notice at first that it says "a su posición inicial", not "a su forma inicial". The image is not of a doll that returns to its initial shape if you bend, stretch or twist it, but of one that returns to its original position if you move it.
Something went wrong...
20 hrs

symptom of plastic baby/collodial baby

I am no expert on this but I think it refers to children born with collodial symptoms which include skin looking like rubber/plastic, they have limited mobility and when touched they cry a lot. Suggest you google term "plastic baby/collodial baby.
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