Apr 23, 2015 08:43
9 yrs ago
2 viewers *
English term
Ms
Non-PRO
English
Other
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
Hello!
Maybe I am checking in the wrong places, but I can not find an answer to this:
Is there an actual word for *Ms* as in *Ms Miller*? (Like *Mister* for *Mr*?)
Context: Book translation, English to German. The client wants to keep the English forms of address in the German version. No problem. But using abbreviations in dialogue is uncommon and awkward. For those parts of the text an actual word would be helpful.
Thanks a lot for your help!
Maybe I am checking in the wrong places, but I can not find an answer to this:
Is there an actual word for *Ms* as in *Ms Miller*? (Like *Mister* for *Mr*?)
Context: Book translation, English to German. The client wants to keep the English forms of address in the German version. No problem. But using abbreviations in dialogue is uncommon and awkward. For those parts of the text an actual word would be helpful.
Thanks a lot for your help!
Responses
| 5 +9 | ms |
Sheila Wilson
|
| 4 +5 | Only exists as an abbreviation |
Tony M
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| 5 -4 | Miz, Miss |
Anna Kireeva
|
References
| Wikipedia |
Riesling
|
| Ms: not an abbreviation! |
B D Finch
|
Change log
Apr 23, 2015 09:14: Yvonne Gallagher changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:
Non-PRO (3): Edith Kelly, Tony M, Yvonne Gallagher
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Responses
+9
13 mins
Sheila Wilson
Spain
Spain
Native in English
&
English
Works in field
Spain
20 years producing 100% natural English
Native in: English (Variant: British) 
Works in: English, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
28
Selected
ms
Ms is Ms. It isn't an abbreviation. But then neither are the other titles. What would you use as the full form of Mrs? Missus? It would be highly inappropriate. The word Mister is used a little more often but again I wouldn't consider it to be the full form of the title Mr.
Ms came about in the Sixties when businesswomen objected to being labeled as married or single when their male counterparts weren't.
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Note added at 35 mins (2015-04-23 09:18:52 GMT)
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I don't actually see your problem, Usch. If someone in written dialogue says "Hello Mr Smith" then the reader, reading aloud, would say /mista/ (sort of - no idea how to get a schwa character to show). You would never write, in English, "Hello Mister Smith". Exactly the same applies to Ms. For the correct pronunciation you need the schwa again - the most common sound in English - that's pretty much no sound. And the "s" is a hard one, /z/. It really shouldn't be pronounced /miz/ and it certainly can't be written "Miz".
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Note added at 56 mins (2015-04-23 09:40:19 GMT)
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Ah, well, clients can't always have everything they want, can they? At least yours can have a free English lesson :).
Ms came about in the Sixties when businesswomen objected to being labeled as married or single when their male counterparts weren't.
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Note added at 35 mins (2015-04-23 09:18:52 GMT)
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I don't actually see your problem, Usch. If someone in written dialogue says "Hello Mr Smith" then the reader, reading aloud, would say /mista/ (sort of - no idea how to get a schwa character to show). You would never write, in English, "Hello Mister Smith". Exactly the same applies to Ms. For the correct pronunciation you need the schwa again - the most common sound in English - that's pretty much no sound. And the "s" is a hard one, /z/. It really shouldn't be pronounced /miz/ and it certainly can't be written "Miz".
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Note added at 56 mins (2015-04-23 09:40:19 GMT)
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Ah, well, clients can't always have everything they want, can they? At least yours can have a free English lesson :).
Note from asker:
| I'm 100% with you, Sheila. Thanks. It it is just that the CLIENT is asking for a *word* for *Ms*. I could not find one during my research. But as it turns out, there is *Ms* and that's it. I thought so, but wanted to make sure. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
magdadh
: Agree - and especially with the added value comment re Mister & Missus/Mistress.
2 mins
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Thanks. Mistress is so archaic I would never consider it for contemporary English. I have been addressed as Missus though. Not appreciated.
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| agree |
Tony M
4 mins
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Thanks Tony
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| agree |
Anna Kireeva
: There weren't written words, still it's pronouncet as *MIZ*, but we write it as Ms. There arent norms about it.
13 mins
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Thanks Anna
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| agree |
B D Finch
: It's pronounced Məz with the [ə] having the same sound as the "er" in feather in southern counties' English. Mrs is a contraction of Mistress.
28 mins
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Thank you so much for the schwa, BD. Very clever of you to get it to print out here. My phone certainly won't. I hesitated to refer to the "-er" endings. I'm from Surrey but not everyone speaks MY English.
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| agree |
BrigitteHilgner
: When I moved to London some decades ago, this used to confuse me no end - but I got used to it.
33 mins
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Thanks Brigitte. I bet it wasn't the only thing you found confusing about life in London! I'm sure I'd feel the same nowadays after 21 years abroad.
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| agree |
Tushar Deep
1 hr
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Thanks
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| agree |
Charles Davis
1 hr
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Thanks
|
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| agree |
Heather Walker (X)
4 hrs
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Thanks
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| agree |
Carol Gullidge
: and with Barbara regarding the pronunciation
4 hrs
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Thanks. Yes, pronounced /məz/ (credit for the schwa goes to Barbara)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you for your help!"
+5
11 mins
Only exists as an abbreviation
No, there isn't an actual word for it!
The abbreviation was created on its own, and is variously pronounced 'miz' or 'meuz' (to make it clear it isn't 'miss')
The other 3 tradiutional abbreviations do of course come from 'proper' words:
Mr = mister
Mrs = mistress
Miss = mistress
Funny really that 2 different abbreviations were created deliberately to make a distinction for Mrs and Miss, even though none was there originally — and then a 3rd abbreviation had to be created to remove that distinction!
I suppose in the light of that logic, one might say that 'Ms' is just a new abbreviation for 'mistress'!!
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Note added at 12 minutes (2015-04-23 08:56:02 GMT)
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For your purposes, perhaps you will just have to invent the word 'mizz'?
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Note added at 15 minutes (2015-04-23 08:58:47 GMT)
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The trouble is, when it is used in general conversation, the term 'mizz' often carries a slightly pejorative connotation that it does not have when used merely as a form of address:
"Oh, you know, she's a bit of a bra-burning 'mizz', but she's alright when you get to know here!"
(Apologies for the sexism, to which I do NOT in any way subscribe, I'm just trying to give Asker a feel for the dangers of using this word in general text)
The abbreviation was created on its own, and is variously pronounced 'miz' or 'meuz' (to make it clear it isn't 'miss')
The other 3 tradiutional abbreviations do of course come from 'proper' words:
Mr = mister
Mrs = mistress
Miss = mistress
Funny really that 2 different abbreviations were created deliberately to make a distinction for Mrs and Miss, even though none was there originally — and then a 3rd abbreviation had to be created to remove that distinction!
I suppose in the light of that logic, one might say that 'Ms' is just a new abbreviation for 'mistress'!!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 minutes (2015-04-23 08:56:02 GMT)
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For your purposes, perhaps you will just have to invent the word 'mizz'?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 minutes (2015-04-23 08:58:47 GMT)
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The trouble is, when it is used in general conversation, the term 'mizz' often carries a slightly pejorative connotation that it does not have when used merely as a form of address:
"Oh, you know, she's a bit of a bra-burning 'mizz', but she's alright when you get to know here!"
(Apologies for the sexism, to which I do NOT in any way subscribe, I'm just trying to give Asker a feel for the dangers of using this word in general text)
Note from asker:
| Thanks a lot for your help! As you say, there are 'proper' words for the other ones, so I thought there just MIGHT be one for Ms which I just cannot find. As you can see from the comments - the whole topic is loaded. ;-) |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
magdadh
: Absolutely. Also, it might be worth saying that spelling out 'Mister' in text CAN give it a tone of ummmm defiancy, ie not being respectful. AND there isn't really a word for Mrs (Mistress sounds Elizabethean, Missus is just plain wrong).
3 mins
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Thanks, Magdadh! Yes, the everyday word for 'Mrs' is of course 'missis', though even that looks all wrong when you actually write it out.
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| agree |
Edith Kelly
3 mins
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Thanks, Edith!
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| agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: I'd keep Ms. Wouldn't think of using "Mizz"
16 mins
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Thanks, G! Yes, in fact, after all, in EN, we'd never write any of them out in full anyway — the reader simply interprets it in their mind. As Magdadh says, if you DO write them out, it tends to add an unwanted connotation.
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| neutral |
Anna Kireeva
: Just keep Ms. without translating it. It's just a life reality.
19 mins
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Of course! That's what I said. I was just trying to give Asker guidance as to how it might be pronounced by a reader in their head, since a German reader might not know that and so might need some help.
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| agree |
Natalie Soper
: Yep, definitely keep it as Ms. I always thought that Ms. was used when you didn't want to disclose your marital status (i.e. if you were a Mrs or Miss) - and maybe some people think that Miss sounds a bit juvenile sometimes?
29 mins
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Thanks, Natalie! Yes, just as we no longer write 'Master' for a young lad! France has adopted a more pragmatic approach: instead of 'inventing' 'Ms.' they have just dropped 'Miss', and 'Mrs' no longer implies marital status.
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| disagree |
B D Finch
: It's pronounced Məz with the [ə] having the same sound as the "er" in feather in southern counties' English.// Sorry to be a pedant, but see my reference comment. The Asker seems to be asking about pronounciation for dialogue, i.e. reading the text aloud.
30 mins
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It is pronounced many different ways, m'z being one of them; but very many people (rightly or wrongly) do use miz; in any case, I was only trying to give guidance to our DE colleague, whio can't use a phonetic character in his text.
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| agree |
Sheila Wilson
: I accept that not all men are sexists, Tony :).
1 hr
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Thanks a lot, Sheila! I wouldn't like to be branded just for using such expressions for purposes of linguistic illustration!
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
2 hrs
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Thanks, C!
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-4
17 mins
Anna Kireeva
Russian Federation
Russian Federation
Works in field
Russian Federation
EACH PROJECT DEEPLY DEVOTED TO
Native in: Russian (Variant: Standard-Russia) 
Works in: English to Russian, Chinese to Russian, Russian to English, and 1 more.
English term (edited):
Ms.
Miz, Miss
The actual word for *Ms* is *Miz*, a title used before the surname or full name of any woman regardless of her marital status (a neutral alternative to Mrs. or Miss ).
Example sentence:
Dear Ms. Sarah Brown...
Note from asker:
| Thanks Anna! |
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
magdadh
: Not quite, AND it doesn't work (the way German Frau or Polish Pani would) when spelled out in dialogue
1 min
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| disagree |
writeaway
: never heard of Miz. and it's not Miss in any case
1 min
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I've heard this version once in New York when was working there.
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| neutral |
Tony M
: Your answer is misleading: while 'miz' might be acceptable, 'Miss' certainly isn't; also note your example, it is unusual in EN to address someone using both the title Ms. AND their christian name: 'Dear Sarah Brown' or 'Dear Ms. Brown'
1 min
|
| disagree |
B D Finch
: The whole point of "Ms" is to avoid use of "Miss" and "Mrs". I believe that "Miz" may be a southern US pronounciation of "Miss".
17 mins
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| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: Agree with all of above comments, no such woird as "Miz"
6 hrs
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Reference comments
16 mins
Reference:
Wikipedia
"Ms." began to be used as early as the 17th century, along with "Miss" and "Mrs.", as a title derived from the then formal "Mistress", which, like Mister, did not originally indicate marital status.[6][7] "Ms.", however, fell into disuse in favor of the other two titles and was not revived until the 20th century.
Reference:
Note from asker:
| Thank you Riesling! Been there! ;-) |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
magdadh
1 min
|
| agree |
B D Finch
28 mins
|
| agree |
Tushar Deep
1 hr
|
| agree |
Sheila Wilson
: Though I don't know how much truth there is in the statement that it was ussed way back. My Oxford certainly thinks it's 20th century.
1 hr
|
1 hr
Reference:
Ms: not an abbreviation!
" ... if you want to be literal, an abbreviation is an abbreviated form of something. But Ms. doesn’t need to be a literal abbreviation to exist. It does exist, as anyone can plainly see. If it’s not an abbreviation, that doesn’t stop it existing any more than a mannequin not being human stops it existing.
Ms. isn’t an abbreviation, but rather a blend. It’s a combination of the two words Miss and Mrs., and it happens to inherit the closing period of the abbreviation Mrs., making it superficially resemble an abbreviation. That’s all."
N.B. In British English, there is no full stop after either Mrs or Ms because the final letter is the same in the abbreviation as in the full form (mistress).
Ms. isn’t an abbreviation, but rather a blend. It’s a combination of the two words Miss and Mrs., and it happens to inherit the closing period of the abbreviation Mrs., making it superficially resemble an abbreviation. That’s all."
N.B. In British English, there is no full stop after either Mrs or Ms because the final letter is the same in the abbreviation as in the full form (mistress).
Note from asker:
| Thank you for your thoughts and for expanding! |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Tony M
6 mins
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Thanks Tony
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| agree |
Charles Davis
6 mins
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Thanks Charles
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| agree |
Tushar Deep
16 mins
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Thanks Tushar
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| agree |
Sheila Wilson
19 mins
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Thanks Sheila
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: but I diagree about the full stop after Mr. I was always taught to use it and it is only more recently it has started to fall out of use
5 hrs
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Thanks AT. We might be a similar age - I was also taught to use a full stop after Mr and Mrs, but I think it fell out of favour around the late 1970s or early 1980s.
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Discussion
If abbreviations are frowned on in German written dialogue, I think your client will just have to make an exception for English ones (and Sheila and Barbara are right that Ms is not an abbreviation anyway).
Tony's already made this point. Spelling it out is inherently pejorative: anti-feminist. You client needs to be made aware of this.