Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 13, 2014:

Таки да! :-) Het past!

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 13, 2014:

Indeed, Barend! That wikipedia link has a Dutch language page there too: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedarnaja_strojka

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 13, 2014:

In this case the 'belanghebbenden' voluntarily and legally committed themselves to pay some 2013 guilders and carry out 'spandiensten' while the local authorities would coordinate these 'spandiensten'.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 13, 2014:

In fact, I did think about "ударная стройка"
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ударная_стройка
but it is slightly removed geographically, as well as temperament wise probably too.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 13, 2014:

No, I don't think it applies to this context. The agreement between these Dutch gentlemen would then be to produce so much money and so many work gangs?
I think avoiding any sort of qualification would be a better way out of this.

writeaway Jul 13, 2014:

Google translate of most recent Russian posting He means "command "

Brigade, there detachments (both areas).

then:
so was BAM in Siberia (40 years ago. Not only the prisoners, but Komsomol volunteers)

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 13, 2014:

Not necessary, Remember massive public works (road construction) in the United States under Roosevelt during the Great Depression in the early 1930's? The workmen were not all convicts, but they worked in gangs=teams. So was БАМ in Siberia (40 years ago. Не только зэки, но и комсомольцы-добровольцы). Belanghebbenden were just some interested parties. Promoters, perhaps.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 13, 2014:

ok, Evgeny, in that case it would be better to say "SUPERVISED"

Supervised road labor
http://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/nieuwsfoto's/african-americ... :))

I mean, all gangs have somebody in charge, is that the point?
There are these trustees (belanghebbenden ) messing up the context...

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 13, 2014:

Он имеет в виду "команды" Бригады, там, отряды (как на зонах). Road-building gangs. :-)

Michael Beijer Jul 13, 2014:

'with teams' Look at the Jansonius, Huitenga and Wolters entries. That's where I got the 'with teams' from. This type of work is usually performed ‘with teams’, that is, whoever is in charge uses the teams to get the work done. I suppose you could also say 'in teams', but this stresses a different aspect.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 13, 2014:

Michael, May I ask you, what is 'statute labour with teams"?

I had deleted it in the glossary entry and left it as 'statute labor (corvée)' because I don't understand what you mean by it. If you mean "statute labour performed in teams", then it is a qualifier, for sure, and I don't think it's needed here either. "Public work performed in teams" would then sound better, but mean something entirely different.

Michael Beijer Jul 12, 2014:

@writeaway: I admit, the way I entered the answer might be a little confusing. They are not meant to be used together, as in:

‘statute labour corvées with teams’

That would indeed be peculiar.

I meant, mean and will continue to mean for the foreseeable future:

‘statute labour with teams’, or
‘statute labour’, or
‘corvée’, or
‘corvées’, or
‘corvées with teams’, or
etc.

I.e., pick one of these.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

Yes, That is why it was used in this text, as I said already somewhere above, this is also the only possible context for it - as far as I get it - 160 years ago or longer.

Alexander Schleber (X) Jul 12, 2014:

spaMdiensten ? I envy the enthusiasm of some of the contributors, but the number and the wordiness of the reactions is slowly taking on spam magnitudes.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 12, 2014:

The point is this text is about a situation 160 years ago and about building a road while I am sure horses and carts were most welcome during the construction of this road.

And this might be the reason why this word was used in this text.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

That is actually the annoying thought lingering :
yes, without horses or carts --- nowadays.

otherwise, I don't see where we get "hand-en-spandiesten" from, if it's not that same evolution of meaning.

Do words get revived like that?

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 12, 2014:

Public work with or without horses and carts? :-)

Yes, they voluntarily committed themselves to carrying out this 'public work'.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

I've seen this last quote Ding Dong!

thanks everybody!
The Contract System of Public Work Prevails! Now more than ever!

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 12, 2014:

belanghebbenden: 2013 gulden + spandiensten
gemeente: 5098 - 2013 = 3085 gulden + armwezen

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 12, 2014:

Katerina This whole discussion about the 'armwezen' is just irrelevant and confusing the issue.

De gemeente will make use of the 'armwezen' and the 'belanghebbenden' will do their part.

In fact, the 'gemeente' will bring in part of the money and the 'armwezen' and the 'belanghebbenden' will bring in money and 'spandiensten'.

Het werk aan aardenbaan en begriending dier baan zal niet worden uitbesteed doch worden uitgevoerd door belanghebbenden en gemeente, die het armwezen zal inschakelen. De totale kosten van het gereedmaken van de weg worden begroot op vijfduizend achtennegentig gulden en vijfendertig cent.

Richard Purdom Jul 12, 2014:

:-) ding dong!

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

Barend, belanghebbenden are the trustess or the commissioners as they are called pretty much ubiquitously. The poor peoples doing the work are indeed the poor: as it describes here on top of the page: http://books.google.nl/books?id=tLUuAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA456&lpg=PA...

Michael Beijer Jul 12, 2014:

@Richard: and while we’re at it...

‘In fact rights of serve the poor more than they do the landowners, who often try and obstruct them.’

->

‘In fact, rights of way serve the poor more than they do the landowners, who often try and obstruct them.’

;)

Michael Beijer Jul 12, 2014:

¬¬¬ In a way, ‘public work’ is probably best, because it’s nice and vague. Was the work statutory, who knows? None of us here really do, in any case. Problem ‘solved’.

Richard Purdom Jul 12, 2014:

NOT 'consist in' consist of, please

Richard Purdom Jul 12, 2014:

How 'free' serfs were at any time is a moot point, I don't know what it was like in NL but in England they were basically chattel and slaves.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 12, 2014:

Katerina It is obvious from the start this project is an initiative coming from the 'belanghebbenden' and that the 'belanghebbenden' are prepared to carry out 'spandiensten'.

[belanghebbenden] verklaren zich regtens tegenover het gemeentebestuur van Dongen te willen verbinden, om indien hetzelve den aanleg van genoemde weg op zich neemt, daartoe de volgende sommen bij te dragen, te betalen zoodra het gemeentebestuur, zulks na decreteren ( verordenen ) van den weg zal goedvinden, alsmede om de volgende spandiensten te verrigten op zulke tijdstippen als dat het bestuur zal nodig oordelen.

In short, the 'belanghebbenden' committed themselves to contribute money and do 'public work'.

As far as your question is concerned.

"De heer de Jong overlegt dan een lijst, waarop door de belanghebbenden de door hen te doene bijdragen zijn uitgetrokken, welke een totaal van zeventienhonderd en drieëndertig gulden en een groot aantal spandiensten oplevert. "

"welke een totaal van zeventienhonderd en drieëndertig gulden en een groot aantal spandiensten oplevert." means that their contributions consist in 1733 guilders and doing a great amount of 'public work'.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

Armwezen is for sure an AGENCY taking care of the POOR?
— ook wel ARMENWEZEN —, znw. onz.; zonder mv., als allesomvattend collectief. Uit Arm (II) A, 2, b) en Wezen, znw.
↪ Het volle begrip van al wat den toestand der armen betreft.

Michael Beijer Jul 12, 2014:

anyway ...whether ‘armwezen’ is The Poor, or the people who help/manage The Poor, the fact is that poor people were used to build the road. how free they were to volunteer, however, remains to be seen. Barend thinks they volunteered, I suspect they didn’t.

Michael Beijer Jul 12, 2014:

hmm might be wrong. I think ‘armwezen’ might actually mean the poor people themselves.

I think it can mean both.

Michael Beijer Jul 12, 2014:

‘armwezen’ as far as I know, ‘armwezen’ here refers to the part of the government/country that takes care of and manages the poor, not the poor people themselves

when they say:

‘uitgevoerd door belanghebbenden en gemeente, die het armwezen zal inschakelen’

I think this should be read to mean that the belanghebbenden and gemeente will be contacting the armwezen, which will then deploy the poor people to do the actual work. these poor people who do the actual digging, will not be people who merrily volunteered, they will be part of some form of statute labour/corvée type thing

Richard Purdom Jul 12, 2014:

what armwezen want Living among the 'armwezen' I can assure you Michael that rights of way, roads and right to movement are of PARAMOUNT importance, and often a source of extreme violence here among de hete bloedige zuidelingen. In fact rights of serve the poor more than they do the landowners, who often try and obstruct them.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

I would translate it as "amounting to 1733 guilders and a great amount of public work required", skipping on "oplevert".
Barend, could you please suggest something, if you know?
Did you take a look at this Canadian site?

Richard Purdom Jul 12, 2014:

work/works Barend, you are quite right about this distinction, these are completely different things.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 12, 2014:

As follows:

There are two parties who will be working on the project:

the 'belanghebbenden'
the 'gemeente'

the 'belanghebbenden': they will contribute money and carry out 'public work'

the 'gemeente': for their part they will contribute money and make use of the 'armwezen' whatever this is exactly

Het werk aan aardenbaan en begriending dier baan zal niet worden uitbesteed doch worden uitgevoerd door belanghebbenden en gemeente, die het armwezen zal inschakelen. De totale kosten van het gereedmaken van de weg worden begroot op vijfduizend achtennegentig gulden en vijfendertig cent.

Michael Beijer Jul 12, 2014:

@Barend: Maar waarom gaan ze dan "het armwezen inschakelen", als het vrijwillig is? Mensen gaan toch nooit gewoon een weg bouwen omdat ze het belangrijk vinden. Veel van die arme mensen zouden die weg niet eens gebruiken, die was denk ik belangrijker voor kooplieden enz.

Zie ook nog eens deze pagina: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvée

Wat we hier nodig hebben denk ik is een geschiedkundige…

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 12, 2014:

This is not about 'statute labour' since the relevant people committed themselves to carrying out this public work voluntarily.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

Actually, I think everybody is right here.

This is what it is here, but I can imagine other uses in different contexts. that's the fun with these old outdated words.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 12, 2014:

Katerina, if you would like to use 'opera publica' in this context, then you should use

public work

rather than

public works

"De heer de Jong overlegt dan een lijst, waarop door de belanghebbenden de door hen te doene bijdragen zijn uitgetrokken, welke een totaal van zeventienhonderd en drieëndertig gulden en een groot aantal spandiensten oplevert. "

..., which implied contributing a total of 1733 guilders and carrying out a great amount of public work.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

yes, of course the discussion went on for so long, that I had finally given up on following it, but yes, you're right. Thanks!

Michael Beijer Jul 12, 2014:

@katerina: Hence, my answer seems to be correct:

statute labour (corvée(s)) with teams (in some form or other)

Please have a look at my various most recent discussion entries:

‘Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal 14e ed.’
‘Huitenga’
‘Jansonius’
‘Wolters’

... they all clearly explain what ‘spandienst(en)’ means, in your context.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

. I was looking for a more inclusive term, bordering on the metaphorical, and related to building and use of roads. My rational was that if it (the word ‘spandiensten”) is located right next to a fairly huge amount of money - in this text anyway, but then really throughout! - it probably represents any type of haulage service generating money. Additional services, dus. Or back to “public works”. Then I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvée (click on opera publica http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_publica , but then also this: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_stat... . This last website is about what happens in the twenty first century. Thank you everybody!

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 12, 2014:

It’s been difficult to decide First, I thought the word ‘spandiensten’ is not in use currently, and as such I would have to look for some sort of antiquated equivalent in EN. I thought it meant a ‘generally assigned obligation to perform whatever public maintenance services, as long as it requires the use of a horse’. Which is why I called it ‘public works’: not that far from reality. Building a community well, for instance, would be in that list. Or transporting royal goods, too. Here, Evgeny was right with 'гужевая повинность', and google was slightly wrong. Google is right too, but it depends on which way you look at it: ‘Cartage’ means ‘lord's right to demand wagons for military transport”(wiki)., ‘Гужевая повинность' means: “horse-owners duty/feudal homage to provide horses on certain occasions as means of transportation for royal/government goods”( http://commercial_dictionary.academic.ru/388/гужевая_повинно... ), also an infrequent combination, primarily due to the word 'гужевая “ that went out of fashionable use before WWII.

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

¬¬¬ I think poor people were required by law to help build these roads. Rich people gave some money, and poor people had to report for road building duty.

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

Looks like… the wealthy citizens had poor people do the grunt work. Since all three my dictionaries say pretty much the same thing:

spandienst(en) =
(perform) statute labour (corvée(s)) with teams
perform statute labour (feudal services) with teams
statute labour with teams

I suspect that there was an element of statute labour (or whatever you'd call it in that particular period, in the Netherlands).

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

hmm… Look at this part:

‘Aanleg

Het werk aan aardenbaan en begriending dier baan zal niet worden uitbesteed doch worden uitgevoerd door belanghebbenden en gemeente, die het armwezen zal inschakelen.’

So apparently they were going to schakel in ‘het armwezen’. I wonder what this means?

‘armwezen:
al wat de toestand en het bestuur van de armen betreft
synoniem: bedeling’ (Van Dale Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal (14))

Richard Purdom Jul 8, 2014:

'De heer de Jong overlegt dan een lijst, waarop door de belanghebbenden de door hen te doene bijdragen zijn uitgetrokken, welke een totaal van zeventienhonderd en drieëndertig gulden en een groot aantal spandiensten oplevert.'

If it wasn't compulsory, 'work/services for the common weal' is fine imho http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/the common weal...

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 8, 2014:

Het initiatief is volledig uit de bevolking naar voren gekomen.
Gewoon een kwestie van de informatie op de website goed lezen.
Ik zeg het nu maar alvast hier is geen verdere discussie over mogelijk.

Waar ze nu alleen maar over praten, 160 jaar geleden was de 'participatiesamenleving' een voldongen feit. :-)

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

See e.g.: ‘The Commissioners of Supply were empowered by statute. (1719), to call upon every householder to give six days’ work in the year toward the making and maintenance of the roads. And when they had decided to exact the "statute labour" more rigorously, which they did soon after road reform had been taken up as a practical question, they would employ the precentor to read out a notice on Sunday from the "lateran" immediately before the benediction; or engage the bellman to utter a " scry" as the kirk "scailt," whereby the people were asked to "take notice" that their services were needed at such a place on such a day, to work under orders of this or the other J.P. at road-making’ (http://www.electricscotland.com/history/rural_life12.htm )

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

@Barend: Waarom denk je dat het werk vrijwillig wordt gedaan? Kan je ook aangeven waaruit je dat opmaakt? Ik zeg niet dat je ongelijk hebt. Just curious.

The construction of public roads often does involve statute labour, perhaps more so even than voluntary manual labour.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 8, 2014:

vrijwillige spandiensten Bedankt voor je informatie.
Een paar opmerkingen.
Er is denk ik wel een link met 'spandiensten' in de historische betekenis van het woord.
Zoals Evgeny zei (19:00 Jul 6):

"this is what I suggested in the first place -- no, everybody saw something different (including translate.google.com with its 'odd jobs'). In the meantime, it was all about building a road in Dongen (I found the source doc). Building roads has always required lots of cartage (now trucking)."

Wat ik uit de informatie op de website opmaakte (Michael, Evgeny had die website al lang gevonden) is dat bij de bouw van die weg paard en wagens meer dan welkom zijn geweest.

Dus dat is connectie 1
Connectie 2 = arbeid verricht aan gemeentewerken

1 + 2 = arbeid verricht aan gemeentewerken met paard en wagen

Het bijzondere in dit geval is dat die "arbeid verricht aan gemeentewerken met paard en wagen" (even vooropgesteld dat deze aannames juist zijn) vrijwillig werd verricht.

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

more actual context: ‘Raadsvergadering d.d. 9 november 1855

“··De ondergetekenden, ingezetenen der gemeente Dongen, willende een blijk geven van hun verlangen om eene griendweg te zien tot stand gebracht, strekkende vanaf den Hooge Ham, op het punt waar de tegenwoordige griendweg eindigt, over de publieke straat tot aan de Monnendijk, verklaren zich regtens tegenover het gemeentebestuur van Dongen te willen verbinden, om indien hetzelve den aanleg van genoemde weg op zich neemt, daartoe de volgende sommen bij te dragen, te betalen zoodra het gemeentebestuur, zulks na decreteren ( verordenen ) van den weg zal goedvinden, alsmede om de volgende spandiensten te verrigten op zulke tijdstippen alsdat het bestuur zal nodig oordelen.”

Er volgt dan een lijst van personen die ingetekend hebben. In totaal tekenen 132 personen in die een bijdrage aan de weg doen variërende van drie tot honderd gulden. Het totaal van deze bijdrage is tweeduizend en dertien gulden, terwijl in totaal vijfhonderd negenenveertig dagen spandiensten worden verricht.’

src: http://www.oudefotosvandongen.nl/index.php?categoryid=100&p2...

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

@katerina: ‘statute labour (corvée(s)) with teams’ I think this might be a decent translation of ‘spandiensten’ in your context (building a public road in Dongen in 1855).

Not sure how you want to phrase it (statute labour/corvée(s)/with teams, etc.), but I am pretty sure this is correct.

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

Wolters: ‘spandienst = statute labour with teams;
zie ook hand- en spandiensten

hand- en spandiensten = personal service and carriage;
iem ~ bewijzen = aid an abet a person’

– Wolters’ Handwoordenboek Nederland-Engels (20e druk, 1994)

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

Jansonius: ‘spandiensten verrichten = perform statute labour (feudal services) with teams’

– Jansonius, Dr. H.: (Nieuw) Groot Nederlands-Engels woordenboek voor studie en practijk (Numij, 1972)

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

Huitenga: ‘spandienst(en):
[hist.] (perform) statute labour (corvée(s)) with teams.’

– Huitenga, T.: Nederlands-Engels Woordenboek voor Landbouwwetenschappen (Numij, 1976)

--------------------------------------*
*corvée [HISTORICAL] =
(1) A day’s unpaid labour owed by a vassal to his feudal lord.
(1.1) Forced labour exacted in lieu of taxes, in particular that on **public roads** in France before 1776: ‘they still force the peasants to do corveé’ (Oxforddictionaries.com)

Michael Beijer Jul 8, 2014:

Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal 14e ed. Van Dale Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal 14e editie (2005):

• spandient:
dienst waarbij men met paard-en-wagen en zonder betaling aan dijken of wegen helpen moest, een overblijfsel der vroegere herendiensten

vergelijk: hand-en-spandiensten

• hand-en-spandiensten:
(1) herendiensten, vroeger verplichte arbeid aan gemeentewerken, verricht door handenarbeid of met paard-en-wagen
(2) (figuurlijk, minachtend) handlangersdiensten
(3) kleinere klusjes
(4) hand-en-spandiensten verrichten
--------------------------------------------------

Just though I'd provide the full entry as it might be useful.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 6, 2014:

Evgeny, Don't take offence. I did not mean to offend.
And about "moonlighting"- I meant what this word SPANDIENSTEN became later: HAND-EN SPANDIESTEN,
(That is a transformation, an expansion of a linguistic concept which occurs quite often.)
It isn't really relevant

Let me reiterate: I am looking for a word/phrase how to translate the meaning of the word SPANDIENSTEN as used in its appropriate context, the only context possible, since currently this stand-alone word is not in use except in history texts to describe the reality of social organization 150 years ago.

Michael Beijer Jul 6, 2014:

@Barend: If that was directed at me, no, I haven’t read the discussion. Well, I skimmed through some of it. Just providing people with what I can find on my computer and elsewhere, in case it might be of some use. No time for an in-depth analysis (I’m installing Windows on my new laptop;).

Michael Beijer Jul 6, 2014:

WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal) ‘SPANDIENST

Woordsoort: znw.(m.)
Modern lemma: spandienst

znw. m. Uit Spannen en Dienst.

+↪ Verplichte dienst, bestaande in het beschikbaar stellen van een span (SPAN III in de bet. 1) of 2) of van de noodige spannen.
— Gewoonlijk in de verbinding Hand- en spandienst (zie bij HANDDIENST).

© 2007 INL. Artikel gepubliceerd in 1933.’
(http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M0650... )

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 6, 2014:

In your 1855 Dongen context it's closer to "communal work" than anything else and has nothing to do with moonlighting or anything of the sort unless you selected that old stuff as a mere example not really related to your genuine context.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 6, 2014:

Have you read the discussion?

This is about the cultural, historical meaning of 'spandiensten' and then possibly a bit different from this.

Van Dale:

spandienst:

dienst waarbij men met paard en wagen en zonder betaling aan wegen en dijken helpen moet, een overblijfsel van de vroegere herendiensten:

'spandienst' komt tegenwoordig alleen nog in het verband 'hand- en spandiensten' voor

Michael Beijer Jul 6, 2014:

some more CELEX/EP stuff 2.7. LIFE-derde landen is erop gericht om derde landen aan de Middellandse Zee en de Oostzee technische hand- en spandiensten te verlenen bij de totstandbrenging van de op milieugebied noodzakelijke capaciteiten en administratieve structuren.
=
2.7. LIFE-Third Countries provides technical assistance with establishment of the necessary environmental capacities and administrative structures in Mediterranean and Baltic third countries. (CELEX Environment, consumers and health protection pt1.tmx)

----

(…) Ik weet wat er in Angola aan de hand is. Ik verricht geen hand- en spandiensten voor de krijgsheren in dat land, of zij nu met olie of diamanten betalen, en al evenmin aan het corrupte Angolese regime, dat in hoge mate verantwoordelijk is voor het lijden van het volk van dat land.
=
(…) I do not do favours for the diamond dealers or the oilmen or for Angola’s corrupt administration, which is largely responsible for what is happening and for the suffering of the Angolan people. (EP plenary session transcripts.tmx)

Michael Beijer Jul 6, 2014:

Van Dale NL<>EN hand-en-spandiensten (zelfstandig naamwoord, meervoud) =
assistance, services
odd jobs, errands (ook pejoratief)

context: hand-en-spandiensten verrichten = lend a helping hand

Michael Beijer Jul 6, 2014:

JurLex hand-en-spandiensten verlenen = to do odd jobs; to provide assistance; to render assistance

(Sr) hand-en-spandiensten verlenen = aiding and abetting

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 6, 2014:

Communal work is really NOT what it is.

I explain (as far as I understand it): some one/several member(s) of the community is/are asked to do a favor for the community by executing some sort of task free of charge. Then, in 1800's, it normally had to do with building roads, but supposedly could involve other aspects of the community infrastructure as well. The work is/was performed on an individual basis (not communally), using whatever tools are available (horses – well then, it’s only those people, who have horses that get asked to do this specific task). Therefore it gave rise to the word for "odd/side jobs", "moonlighting" later on with the addition of the word "hand" to the original word to specify what…? Here I will let your imagination run wild.
Could it be that they are talking not only about generating money, but also about generating willing participation by the populace? In that case, the translation should of course acknowledge the “free of charge” element.

Michael Beijer Jul 6, 2014:

maybe useful Wel verrichtten de begunstigden hand- en spandiensten aan de betrokken ambtenaar.
=
The beneficiaries did, however, provide some quid pro quo to the official concerned. (CELEX Written questions submitted to the European Parliament.tmx)
----
1. Verlenging van de regulering van wholesale- en retailtarieven voor spandiensten tot 2013.
=
1. Extension of voice wholesale and retail regulation up to 2013 (CELEX Industrial policy and internal market pt2.tmx)
----
Die strategie was gebaseerd op criminele methodes en schending van de mensenrechten en kon worden uitgevoerd dankzij de hand- en spandiensten van Europese regeringen en geheime diensten.
=
It was only possible to implement this strategy because of the collusion of European governments and secret services. (EP plenary session transcripts.tmx)
----

http://www.linguee.com/english-dutch/search?query=spandienst...

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 6, 2014:

Perhaps there are links with 'communal work' but my guess would be you cannot call it this.

Unfortunately, I have no time to find out more about 'spandiensten'.

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 6, 2014:

It's communal work then as historically explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_work

Btw, commonplace still in Russia and across ex-Soviet Union, know as 'pOmoch' or 'toloka' (derived from Finnish, probably, with participants known as 'tolochane') and 'hashar' in Turkic-speaking areas.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 6, 2014:

I don't know.
What I would do is trying to find more information about 'spandiensten' in order to gain a better understanding of the exact meaning and then see if and how I could use this information for this context.
And then look for a comparable concept in English.

It is an interesting question which requires cultural knowledge and involves cultural differences.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 6, 2014:

Whatever it may be in general, I agree with Barend: some sort of "common good services"

Specifically for this context:
I agree with Freekfluweel; it is probably better translated as undefined 'additional services' without getting into the mess of trying to explain the barter aspect of these exchanges. It is mentioned right next to a huge amount of money in almost all instances in this text.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 6, 2014:

Community Public Works sort of...maybe...

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 6, 2014:

Evgeny You made me curious and I found this website as well.

Het totaal van deze bijdrage is tweeduizend en dertien gulden, terwijl in totaal vijfhonderd negenenveertig dagen spandiensten worden verricht.

It has not been specified what these 'spandiensten' involve.
Not necessarily carts and horses.

We would need to know more about the historical context of 'spandiensten', how were these actually organised and which connotations were involved?

It would still be helpful to find an English equivalent.

What we see here is that, in this context, the 'spandiensten' may be a bit different from what they used to be, still there may be strong parallels as well: people working for the common good, free of charge, taking over the responsibilities of the local authorities.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 6, 2014:

Everybody is right about the exact date Why can't we agree about the century?

I said: eighteen hundreds; I also said I don't really give a hoot about what they did with their time and money back then; if the one paid for the other - all the better! Some of those historic roads are still there today.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 6, 2014:

Yes, I see.
I checked it, mid 1800s seems to be around 1850 rather than 1750.

If we Dutch people say '18e eeuw' then we mean 1701 - 1800.

But '1800s' is a different reference and means, probably, everything that started with '18': 1800 - 1899.

So it was about 160 years ago these guys were carrying out 'spandiensten', building a road in Dongen, using their carts and horses...

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 6, 2014:

I said "mid-1800's" -- the 19th century 28 October 1855, to be precise. :-)

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 6, 2014:

For the record. Sorry , you said '18th century' (1701 - 1800), this would mean some 250 years ago.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 6, 2014:

Well, I consider a 'historical text' to be a text created in the past and, consequently, pertaining to the past.

Something that would happen some 150 years ago sounds to me pretty historical, although people used to eat, drink, sleep and make love in these times as well.

Today, in Holland, you would only see tractors and you would hardly find anyone who accepts something they don't want to accept.
So these 'spandiensten', at least, seem to be a bit historical.

Anyway, Katerina called it a historical text. It's her fault.
And the kind of Dutch can easily be understood but a few things sound a bit peculiar to my ears.

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 6, 2014:

Not much historical, really, It dates back to the mid-1800s. Paving Vennen, St. Josephstraat and part of de Hooge Ham in Dongen. North Brabant.

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 6, 2014:

Well, this kind of 'spandiensten':

diensten waarbij je een paard inspant voor de wagen en erop uittrekt om daarmee bepaalde werkzaamheden te verrichten

seem to me typical Dutch, as we are always busy maintaining dykes and roads (on dykes). This work needs to be done and was perhaps seen as a collective responsibility.

So if this is a historical text, we may well need to take this 'spandiensten' literally.

So they would harness a horse to a cart and leave for work on dykes and roads they were supposed to do.

So 'the word is completely legit', as Katerina would have it, and it could be dug up in the most modern dictionaries.

I don't know an English equivalent for this 'antiquated' meaning.

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 6, 2014:

@Barend, this is what I suggested in the first place -- no, everybody saw something different (including translate.google.com with its 'odd jobs'). In the meantime, it was all about building a road in Dongen (I found the source doc). Building roads has always required lots of cartage (now trucking).

Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 6, 2014:

Van Dale:

spandienst:

dienst waarbij men met paard en wagen en zonder betaling aan wegen en dijken helpen moet, een overblijfsel van de vroegere herendiensten: 'spandienst' komt tegenwoordig alleen nog in het verband 'hand- en spandiensten' voor

Dus:

de belanghebbenden moeten een bijdrage leveren van zeventienhonderd en drieëndertig gulden + een groot aantal spandiensten (zie boven)

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 6, 2014:

Not really "required" (i.e. "demanded") although yes, necessary. It was "paardspan-diensten".

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 6, 2014:

I mean, I understand verplichte does not mean 'obligatory' in this case

but it is something required to be done either on a public or a private request and which requires the use of some kind of tools? That would be figurative (?) interpretation.

But i don't care about any wrong use of anything back in the eighteen hundreds. They went on with it too. Freekfluweel, I think you are right about 'addtitional services'. Please, put it up as an answer!

freekfluweel Jul 6, 2014:

wrong use of spandiensten text says: zeventienhonderd en drieëndertig gulden

that's a lot of money in those days!

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 6, 2014:

This is from Onze Taal Bij spandienst (in een artikel dat in 1933 werd geschreven) staat: "Verplichte dienst, bestaande in het beschikbaar stellen van een span (...) of van de noodige spannen [paarden]."
?

freekfluweel Jul 6, 2014:

here: additional services/labour that were not in the original contract

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 6, 2014:

Something else, I apologize for using the word "unanswered"in my posting. "Unclosed" would have been much better, of course. It was like: I first started looking up this word, found this question, registered that it was not closed, and went on with doing something else. Then only I posted my own question. In any case, I apologize for the wrong use of the word.

katerina turevich (asker) Jul 6, 2014:

Ok guys, No jokes, Russia or Russian is as far away from this text or locality, as ever

the surrounding sentence is : "De heer de Jong overlegt dan een lijst, waarop door de belanghebbenden de door hen te doene bijdragen zijn uitgetrokken, welke een totaal van zeventienhonderd en drieëndertig gulden en een groot aantal spandiensten oplevert. "
Historical text. Old usage. That's why I went looking and found OnzeTaal bit. As far as I am concerned, the word is completely legit, or was. I though it was up to you, native speakers, to elaborate on the meaning even if you lost it, and have to dig up some "antiquated" dictionaries.

Alexander Schleber (X) Jul 6, 2014:

More context !! What is the source sentence or context. Please provide.

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 6, 2014:

"cartage duty", rather.

The only sense you can do it "for your own needs" is figurative: you must routinely take your husband to his office (and back) and your kids to school and back home in your car. :-)

writeaway Jul 6, 2014:

No idea if Google is close or has come up with a howler but it's better than nothing I suppose. Theoretically this is a Dutch-English question.

Natasha Ziada (X) Jul 6, 2014:

:) Thanks writeaway, my Russian was a tad rusty

writeaway Jul 6, 2014:

Google translate for the few of us here who don't know Russian
Это "гужевая повинность" = It's "cartage service "

Natasha Ziada (X) Jul 6, 2014:

Agree with Freek on all accounts and as far as I know it's only ever used in the combination 'hand-en-spandiensten'. What's the actual context?

Evgeny Artemov (X) Jul 6, 2014:

Это "гужевая повинность" cannot be anything else outside the context. :-)

writeaway Jul 6, 2014:

how about a sentence in Dutch to show the context?

freekfluweel Jul 6, 2014:

helping hand Gratis werkzaamheden aanbieden. Zover ik weet altijd voor een ander! Komt oorspronkelijk van de verplichting om je paard en wagen in te zetten bij dijkverhoging!

Niet per se "manual labour", ook niet "public works".

Overigens is je ref hand- en spandiensten en i.h.a. komt alleen "spandiensten" niet voor!